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Old 24-04-2018, 07:24   #616
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Not sure why your tail is so tied in a knot. No one is stopping you from creating all the presentations you want using "animation and simulated photography." I, for one, would appreciate your doing so. I think it would demonstrate what Earthtime also showed -- which is that we humans clearly have the ability to adversely alter our environment, and that too often we humans value short-term gain over long-term consequences.
I actually agree with all of this. As for your fist sentence, my critique of your posts is that, in my opinion, they often cross the line between honest and worthwhile information & debate, and into the realm of propaganda. But as I've said, I'm not one who's ever found the alarmist & doomsday approach credible. But I've also said you're obviously free to post whatever you want, and I'm free to question and critique it. Free speech can be annoying & irritating, but usually the only way to get to some truth.
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Old 24-04-2018, 07:26   #617
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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I've flagged your posts, and have asked the moderators to ban you from further participation in this thread.
And friends, this is how the game is played.
Anyone who doesn't drink the MMGW CoolAid MUST and I mean MUST be attacked and Silenced. So Dangerous are free thinking Scientists that they must be personally attacked.

It doesn't matter that I am the ONLY ONE in this thread that has actually been to a Power Plant and taken CO2 measurements.

It doesn't matter that I am the ONLY ONE in this thread that has actually presented a Scientific paper at an Air Pollution Conference.

It doesn't matter that I am the ONLY ONE in this thread that has actually spent time in the Air Pollution and Control Fields.

But perhaps it DOES MATTER.....

Perhaps I Scare People and make them uncomfortable because with my background I am easily able to call their Bluff and say the Emperor has no clothes. The fact that I do that with a smart ass humor and flair angers them even more. No one should have such fun while at the same time proving the MMGWC's to be what they are....EcoFascists. Agree with us...parrot our line...or I will report you to Big Brother to Silence you....ha ha ha ha....Please. I've been attacked and silenced by better on a bad day.

Freedom means dealing with things that make you uncomfortable....and Freedom isn't for everyone, some prefer the slavery and tyranny of uniform thought and opinion.

Now excuse me...Living in La Paz as I am....there is a Taco Cart Breakfast calling....
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Old 24-04-2018, 07:32   #618
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Yes, we are not always as civil towards each other as we should be, and I apologize for however I've contributed to incivility. But I've noticed on many climate-related threads that as soon as SV THIRD DAY enters the conversation the level of discourse makes a very sharp downwards turn.
I could quite easily point out the same with at least three others who are more closely aligned with your views. But then I for one have learned quite a bit from the debate that often follows, even if it is sometimes fraught with personal derision. The discourse I for one find most objectionable is the attacks on the scientists themselves. They're not free from the same political and other biases us laymen have, but all too often I see them attacked personally vs. what they happen to believe about the actual science. But then I just see this more as maligning the credibility of the attacker vs. the recipient, and move on from there.
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Old 24-04-2018, 07:34   #619
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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You are consistently miss Because the sun's output is very constant, the sun does not create climate CHANGE.
Incorrect statement.
The sun's energy output variability has not just been well documented, it's also acknowledged in the Scientific Community as being the main driver or Climatic Cycles. This has been happening (and provable) for the recorded geologic record. We are talking basic Earth Science here folks.

But that's the rub. If the SUN and not Human Activity is to "blame" then how can you Tax the Sun? How can you make the sun pay Reparations? How can you control the Sun? Bingo....It's all about money and control and since you can't control the Sun.
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Old 24-04-2018, 07:41   #620
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Newhaul,
You are consistently missing that that we are talking about climate CHANGE, not just climate. Because the sun's output is very constant, the sun does not create climate CHANGE. Other processes are responsible for the CHANGE, including the Milankovitch Cycle and CHANGES in Greenhouse Gas concentrations.
no we are not discussing climate change we all know the climate is in a constant state of change. What I am saying is that humans have little actual long term effect on the planetary climate system its all about the sun ( again long term)
here are the reports again
Surprise its caused by the sun.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.4930679

Climate El Nino
btw the milankovitch cycle is about the sun and the earths position in relation to it.
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Old 24-04-2018, 07:50   #621
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Newhaul,
You are consistently missing that that we are talking about climate CHANGE, not just climate. Because the sun's output is very constant, the sun does not create climate CHANGE. Other processes are responsible for the CHANGE, including the Milankovitch Cycle and CHANGES in Greenhouse Gas concentrations.
Fwiw, the confusion I have is when I read the various influences that scientists attribute significant climate events to such as the MWP and LIA, they include variations in solar activity and radiation. I wouldn't be surprised if there are theories that minimize these influences, but that doesn't mean other credible scientific opinions are invalid.
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:08   #622
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Incorrect statement.
The sun's energy output variability has not just been well documented, it's also acknowledged in the Scientific Community as being the main driver or Climatic Cycles. This has been happening (and provable) for the recorded geologic record. We are talking basic Earth Science here folks.
Yes, your statement is incorrect. The main driver of long term climate change is Miliankovitch cycles, which change the earth's orientation to the sun. They do not affect solar variability.

If you step closer to a fire, you will feel warme; the fire did not get more intense.
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:12   #623
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Fwiw, the confusion I have is when I read the various influences that scientists attribute significant climate events to such as the MWP and LIA, they include variations in solar activity and radiation. I wouldn't be surprised if there are theories that minimize these influences, but that doesn't mean other credible scientific opinions are invalid.
Here is recent science for you

Quote:
We conclude that winters in which the Thames froze are not at all good indicators of the hemispheric or global mean temperatures, although well-correlated with the lowest temperatures in the local observational record, the CET. The often-quoted result that they were enhanced during the solar Maunder minimum is false. Thames freeze years are slightly more frequent before the Maunder minimum began and also considerably more common 65 years after it ended. The association of the solar Maunder minimum and the Little Ice Age is also not supported by proper inspection and ignores the role of other factors such as volcanoes. Together these mean that, although the LIA covers both the Spörer and Maunder solar minima, it also persisted and deepened during the active solar period between these two minima.
https://academic.oup.com/astrogeo/ar...2/2.17/3074082
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:15   #624
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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no we are not discussing climate change we all know the climate is in a constant state of change. What I am saying is that humans have little actual long term effect on the planetary climate system its all about the sun ( again long term)
here are the reports again
Surprise its caused by the sun.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.4930679

Climate El Nino
btw the milankovitch cycle is about the sun and the earths position in relation to it.
What aprt is this do you not get?

Quote:
During the initial discovery period of global climate change, the magnitude of the influence of the Sun on Earth's climate was not well understood. Since the early 1990s, however, extensive research was put into determining what role, if any, the Sun has in global warming or climate change.

A recent review paper, put together by both solar and climate scientists, details these studies: Solar Influences on Climate. Their bottom line: though the Sun may play some small role, "it is nevertheless much smaller than the estimated radiative forcing due to anthropogenic changes." That is, human activities are the primary factor in global climate change.
Global Warming -- Research Issues
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:15   #625
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Perhaps I Scare People and make them uncomfortable . . .

Only when you undertook your monster teak deck removal project on your own and may not have had enough beer on hand, but I felt better when your son showed up to help.

Agree with us...parrot our line...or I will report you to Big Brother to Silence you....ha ha ha ha....Please.

Sounds like what happened to Lomberg as discussed a few pages back. Turns out the guy is committed to the AGW mantra but differed when it came to potential solutions, especially when it came to economic impacts in poor countries. A group of scientists filed a formal complaint charging "fake science," a favorable ruling from a scientific board issued, that ruling was then overturned, and one of the disgruntled scientists (a biologist) who filed the original complaint launched a website focused exclusively on Lomberg's "scientific errors." Then another group of scientists thankfully came forward and publicly concluded that Lomberg and his views had been unfairly suppressed (although didn't necessarily agree with those views). For all I know the guy is a total quack, but isn't that best handled through a transparent process of critique rather than trying to subvert? Thankfully the NYT let him publish an op-ed and then open it up for (mostly critical) comments (thanks for presenting those SailOar).

It boggled my mind that, with this extensive history of controversy (deserved or not), all we get from Jack is the website critique from the disgruntled biologist! What exactly is the pro-CC crowd afraid of that they need to resort to intimidation, bullying, and threats of prosecution over opposing IDEAS???


Freedom means dealing with things that make you uncomfortable....and Freedom isn't for everyone, some prefer the slavery and tyranny of uniform thought and opinion.
That's probably the answer right there. Simple really.
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:17   #626
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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no we are not discussing climate change we all know the climate is in a constant state of change. What I am saying is that humans have little actual long term effect on the planetary climate system its all about the sun ( again long term)
here are the reports again
Surprise its caused by the sun.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.4930679
You link is to a short-term correlation. Causation requires a mechanism not provided by the article.
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:29   #627
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

This post is in response to a comment I read here about the lia not being solar related.

Some say that it was not the sun that causes major cooling like large vei4 or larger volcanic eruptions . Here is the data supporting my assertion that the sun has a major role in it all. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...bubble_chamber

Possible Influence of Solar Activity on Global Volcanicity | Ma | Earth Science Research

https://watchers.news/2015/06/09/cos...nic-eruptions/

Read the reports and studies then make up your own mind .

Check out the current volcanic activity as the sun enters the minima volcanic activity has skyrocketed.
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:32   #628
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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You link is to a short-term correlation. Causation requires a mechanism not provided by the article.
jack go find where the mechanism is or isn't disprove the scientists I just relayed the data to everyone to better inform .
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Old 24-04-2018, 08:54   #629
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Good info. Much of it echoes what is provided in obviously much less detailed form in the Wiki on the LIA. Some confusion might come from both sources citing solar as a factor, but your article more fully explains why -- according to those particular scientists anyway -- it's not the dominant influence. Of course Newhaul cites scientific opinion which presumably disputes your sources (I haven't read them yet), and therein lies one of the major problems in educating lay people about this stuff. With all of the bias, politics and personal agendas surrounding the entire issue, at what point can a lay person rely on any one of the 100's of sub-issues being put to rest? And no, I don't believe the analogies often cited about flat earthers, smoking, etc. are properly made or remotely persuasive. But I do know that only citing one argument of an issue that may still be legitimately controversial amongst professional scientists hurts an advocate's credibility.
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Old 24-04-2018, 10:40   #630
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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With all of the bias, politics and personal agendas surrounding the entire issue, at what point can a lay person rely on any one of the 100's of sub-issues being put to rest? And no, I don't believe the analogies often cited about flat earthers, smoking, etc. are properly made or remotely persuasive. But I do know that only citing one argument of an issue that may still be legitimately controversial amongst professional scientists hurts an advocate's credibility.
I start with the CRAAP test. Yes, that it is what it is called.

American Library Association Updates Its CRAAP Test for Spotting Fake News | Mental Floss
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