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Old 19-04-2018, 14:33   #511
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
No, I didn't miss it. But thank you for mentioning it.

Since this thread is supposed to be about the Northwest Passage, I try to self-limit my posts to at least Arctic-related topics, my most recent post notwithstanding.

On other climate-related threads that I participate in, where I feel more comfortable bringing up a broader range of AGW topics, I can often make one or more posts per day reporting current research or news. For instance, here are seven articles I consider worthy of attention, but which I probably wouldn't bring up on this thread because they are too far off topic. You AGW-deniers are really a joke -- albeit a politically and financially powerful joke.

Warm water rapidly melting Antarctica from below due to climate change

The 8 Million Species We Don’t Know

A North American Climate Boundary Has Shifted 140 Miles East Due to Global Warming

Seabirds Aren’t Keeping Pace With Climate Change

Climate change could trigger volcanic eruptions across the world


Climate Lawsuits, Once Limited to the Coasts, Jump Inland

Corals on Great Barrier Reef will never be the same after back-to-back heat waves
ok lets number your links 1 to 7 just to make it easier to follow.

1 rebuke is Researchers Drilling Into Antarctica's Ross Ice Shelf Make A Genuinely Surprising Discovery | IFLScience

2 is fine nothing wrong with discovering new to humans species.

5 volcanic activity is not due to climate change it is due to cosmic rays
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...42937X10001966

And lastly your number three the imaginary drying of the eastern slopes of the Rocky mountain range.
From NOAA climate at a glance
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Old 19-04-2018, 14:34   #512
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

I will look at the rest of your links and rebut as needed or agree as appropriate.
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Old 19-04-2018, 17:58   #513
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
The 'yes', though absolutely true and and implementable, was a joke; a manipulative ploy lampooning your question, as well as an attempt to draw out the question you were obviously aching to ask, as well as an experiment to see what your response would be to an apparent 180 degree shift in my position that the answer was 'no', made clear 3 times in posts 411, 414 and 418...

If you were actually interested in learning anything, the best and most concise response to 'yes' would have been 'How?'.

Since I cannot read minds, I surmise that you have a point with the posting of the three graphs above, but due to your lack of expatiation, I am at a loss to determine what it is...one has to be patient with us non-intellectuals, so please, humor me by explaining what that point is.
Too bad you blew it taking three days to figure out how to back-pedal. Three posts of ramblings followed by an unambiguous "Yes" doesn't quite align with your post dated versions of events.

Cool story though.

Since you cannot read minds and basic analytical skills would appear to escape you, you'll notice that CO2 emissions are in the process of stabilising yet atmospheric CO2 and average global temperatures are still increasing. This doesn't bode well for the concept of "rapidly stopping global warming" now, does it?

Quote:

blah
blah blah
blah


is beyond me, unless R/M is correct and I am speaking in a mutually- unintelligible language.
Yes, I am correct. You are are speaking in a mutually unintelligible language. Take this latest post of yours for an example. It's exceeded word salad status and is now borderline buffet.

Quote:

blah
blah blah
blah

Perhaps you should look up the effects of global warming, man-made or not, on the speed and nature of the jet stream...
Yes, because everyone knows that the jet stream dumps on deserts. Except for me, apparently.

Quote:

"NASA has also observed CO2-related health impacts on International Space Station (ISS) astronauts at much lower CO2 levels than expected and has identified a mechanism by which CO2 levels could affect the brain... As a result, NASA has already lowered the maximum allowable CO2 levels on the space station. The ISS crew surgeon who is the lead for studying the impact on astronauts of CO2 (and other gases) told Climate Progress he considers the original LBNL-SUNY study “very credible.” Indeed, NASA itself is now starting terrestrial studies to look at the impact of CO2 on judgment and decision-making for the astronaut cohort..."
If you are going to debate a point, I highly recommend you stay on point. Human survival, as Jacko was alluding to, does not hinge on an astronaut's ability to think clearly on a space station.

Quote:
I'll follow your lead here in lack of attribution...
Thanks. It's a nice feeling to know I lead whilst others follow.

Quote:
I guess no one says 'trivia' has to be true...the ambiguity and impreciseness of

"If you compare atmospheric CO2 to human standards of living over the past 800000 years, there is a direct correlation. The more CO2, the better our living standards in all regards."

only enhances it ridiculousness.
Ok. So aside from melting Arctic ice and submerging Miami, why do you think human civilization spews CO2 into the atmosphere? Why do you contribute your portion? I'm guessing it's because you don't live in a lean-to in some jungle somewhere filling your days by posting to the internet using baudot code on a communications device you've made from sea shells.

But yeah, totally ridiculous.

Quote:
Apparently in some more than others...
Yes, but keep at it. I'm sure you will improve with practice.
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Old 19-04-2018, 18:19   #514
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

As I stated earlier, I have chosen not to post very many AGW articles that are extraneous to the Arctic regions. I could literally post 100 more similar to these seven I just posted. The data really is overwhelming, even in spite of the chill that tRump/Pruitt/Zinke are attempting put on the scientific community.

Discussing with you, newhaul, really is not much fun, as you seem to have the same loose connection with reality that tRump has. However, since I did post those links, and since you did respond to them, I will counter-respond, though without much enthusiasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
ok lets number your links 1 to 7 just to make it easier to follow.

1 rebuke is Researchers Drilling Into Antarctica's Ross Ice Shelf Make A Genuinely Surprising Discovery | IFLScience
The Ross Ice Shelf finding is not a "rebuke" of the article I posted. The Ross Ice Shelf is only one part of Western Antarctica, which is the area primarily covered in the study I mentioned.
Quote:

2 is fine nothing wrong with discovering new to humans species.
"discovering new to humans species" is not the point of the article.
Quote:

5 volcanic activity is not due to climate change it is due to cosmic rays
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...42937X10001966
Volcanic activity is due neither to cosmic rays or to climate change. However, both might affect when volcanoes erupt, and it is certainly easier for a scientific layman, such as myself, to understand how climate change could affect volcanic activity. For instance, it is well known that many volcanoes erupt seasonally.

"We suggest that the well-documented slow deformation of Earth’s surface that accompanies the annual movements of water mass from oceans to continents acts to impose a fluctuating boundary condition on volcanoes, such that volcanic eruptions tend to be concentrated during periods of local or regional surface change rather than simply being distributed randomly throughout the year."

Quote:
And lastly your number three the imaginary drying of the eastern slopes of the Rocky mountain range.
From NOAA climate at a glance
The pattern that the researchers noted started in the 1980s, not 1900. Also, your rainfall charts cover the whole state, which is likely too coarse to detect the 140-mile intra-state change.
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Old 19-04-2018, 18:52   #515
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
As I stated earlier, I have chosen not to post very many AGW articles that are extraneous to the Arctic regions.

Aw c'mon SailOar. You mean my subjecting myself to the terror of the Fox News website to find the one on the gulf stream was all for naught?

I could literally post 100 more similar to these seven I just posted.

Ya know, I believe you on this one.

The data really is overwhelming,

Says the guy who posts mainly alarmist opinion articles from partisan publications based on sources which themselves usually acknowledge are presenting worse case if not speculative scenarios.

even in spite of the chill that tRump/Pruitt/Zinke are attempting put on the scientific community.

Gotta love a poster who professes to be presenting "overwhelming data" based on the science, but can't wait for an opportunity to broadcast his personal politics.

Discussing with you, newhaul, really is not much fun, as you seem to have the same loose connection with reality that tRump has. However, since I did post those links, and since you did respond to them, I will counter-respond, though without much enthusiasm.

Whaddayamean "not much fun"?! Then why are you here? Or is it that you actually believe you'll change minds with your "100's" of articles just waiting to be added to the thread?

The Ross Ice Shelf finding is not a "rebuke" of the article I posted. The Ross Ice Shelf is only one part of Western Antarctica, which is the area primarily covered in the study I mentioned.

"discovering new to humans species" is not the point of the article.

Volcanic activity is due neither to cosmic rays or to climate change. However, both might affect when volcanoes erupt, and it is certainly easier for a scientific layman, such as myself, to understand how climate change could affect volcanic activity. For instance, it is well known that many volcanoes erupt seasonally.

"We suggest that the well-documented slow deformation of Earth’s surface that accompanies the annual movements of water mass from oceans to continents acts to impose a fluctuating boundary condition on volcanoes, such that volcanic eruptions tend to be concentrated during periods of local or regional surface change rather than simply being distributed randomly throughout the year."

The pattern that the researchers noted started in the 1980s, not 1900. Also, your rainfall charts cover the whole state, which is likely too coarse to detect the 140-mile intra-state change.
The rest of your post sounds like it approaches legitimate debate with our good shipmate Newhaul, and interesting to boot. Too bad it had to be prefaced with a politically motivated personal slight. But then politics and not science is what lies behind all of these CC threads.
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Old 19-04-2018, 18:55   #516
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Higher CO2 levels impair cognition.

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...-brain-on-co2/
Perhaps that's the answer then. Sort of a self-regulating, Darwinian solution that could clear the way for all the "smart" people to no longer be impeded in their crusade for a cooler planet.
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Old 19-04-2018, 19:01   #517
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I like being challenged and I like debate. Dialectic is a great learning process.

What pisses me off is suppositions without substance and misrepresentations of my posts.

I have a board meeting to chair for the next couple hours. See you later.
In fairness, your posts are often truncated and non-responsive. Please refrain from assuming that others have improper motivations in their challenges to your posts. Otherwise you run the risk of people assuming you are not comfortable with legitimate debate, an assumption that can only hurt your credibility.
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Old 19-04-2018, 19:14   #518
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar
The data really is overwhelming,
Says the guy who posts mainly alarmist opinion articles from partisan publications based on sources which themselves usually acknowledge are presenting worse case if not speculative scenarios.
In virtually all the articles that I post I include a link to the original scientific study, which are typically published in reputable scientific journals such as Nature and Science. Thus, I don't think you are being fair is calling my posts "alarmist opinion articles from partisan publications."

Furthermore, there are often three or four news organizations which pick up the scientific story, and I just choose one of them to quote.
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Old 19-04-2018, 19:19   #519
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Erik de Jong View Post
It is not normal. Normal changes in the planets atmosphere and climate take places over hundreds of years, or even thousands of years. Now it is happening in as little as 20-30 years. It is not the change that is scary, it is the rate at which it is happening.

There are lots of things we can do about it, but most people are too lazy to do something.
Problem is also not necessarily the change on its own, but the pure financial cost of adopting to the change cannot be covered by our children and grandchildren.
I take it you must be assuming that such Arctic sea ice issues are primarily attributable to MMGW as opposed to the myriad of natural forces that have been discussed. Otherwise I don't know what those "lots of things" are that we can influence. And even if it is attributable to MMGW, reliance on fossil fuels has now reached all of humanity, has helped to lift millions out of poverty, and for better or worse has become the lifeblood of almost every society on the planet. I'm not waving the banner for fossil fuels, and none of us debating this created this system of dependency. I'm just asking how realistic it is to make such changes and what they would amount to. And is it morally acceptable to demand such sacrifices from millions alive today to a potential problem which technology and adaptation may have resolved by the time it potentially affects future generations.

I don't have any of these answers but it seems like these sorts of questions never get discussed in these debates.
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Old 19-04-2018, 19:20   #520
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

One off question who here actually believes that the science is settled on agw or natural gw or MMGW or CC whatever you prefer to call it.
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Old 19-04-2018, 19:22   #521
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Side note the the U.S. Senate finally confirmed Jim Bridenstine he is now the new confirmed man in charge of NASA
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Old 19-04-2018, 20:21   #522
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
In virtually all the articles that I post I include a link to the original scientific study, which are typically published in reputable scientific journals such as Nature and Science. Thus, I don't think you are being fair is calling my posts "alarmist opinion articles from partisan publications."

Furthermore, there are often three or four news organizations which pick up the scientific story, and I just choose one of them to quote.
Sure you do. You pick the one that most consistently aligns with your partisan views. And I never suggested the articles fail to link to their scientific sources, only that the authors of the articles put their own spin on the science. So rather than merely presenting a summation of the science for us laymen to better understand, it's merely the layman reporter's own partisan views (or those of the publication) using the link to the scientific source to bolster what is merely opinion, not actual science. I'm not saying this is the case in every one of the articles you cite, only enough of them not to waste my time reading them anymore. But I'm not the type who's easily influenced by doomsday predictions, conspiracy theories, or hyper-partisanship, but maybe other readers find your stuff more persuasive.

Btw, this is similar to what was going on in the Investors Business Daily article I cited awhile back discussing new discoveries of nitrogen in soil & bedrock, and why I acknowledged IBD's political slant & hyperbole ahead of time. The important part of the article (maybe) was the scientific discovery; who cares how the journalist or the publication he works for thinks! The problem these days is how rare it is to come across articles which run counter to the political agenda of the publication, and the scientific journals themselves are hard for laymen to access & comprehend. So everyone believes that whatever they're reading is scientific gospel (if you will), and can't fathom why anyone else can have opposing views. It's a significant problem that is hurting the credibility of the scientific community, regardless of their positions on the science itself.
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Old 19-04-2018, 21:20   #523
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Sure you do. You pick the one that most consistently aligns with your partisan views. And I never suggested the articles fail to link to their scientific sources, only that the authors of the articles put their own spin on the science. So rather than merely presenting a summation of the science for us laymen to better understand, it's merely the layman reporter's own partisan views (or those of the publication) using the link to the scientific source to bolster what is merely opinion, not actual science. I'm not saying this is the case in every one of the articles you cite, only enough of them not to waste my time reading them anymore. But I'm not the type who's easily influenced by doomsday predictions, conspiracy theories, or hyper-partisanship, but maybe other readers find your stuff more persuasive.

Btw, this is similar to what was going on in the Investors Business Daily article I cited awhile back discussing new discoveries of nitrogen in soil & bedrock, and why I acknowledged IBD's political slant & hyperbole ahead of time. The important part of the article (maybe) was the scientific discovery; who cares how the journalist or the publication he works for thinks! The problem these days is how rare it is to come across articles which run counter to the political agenda of the publication, and the scientific journals themselves are hard for laymen to access & comprehend. So everyone believes that whatever they're reading is scientific gospel (if you will), and can't fathom why anyone else can have opposing views. It's a significant problem that is hurting the credibility of the scientific community, regardless of their positions on the science itself.
The scientific studies that are covered by the news articles I post are typically picked up by a number of different news organizations. Of necessity I select only one to post, but they all usually present essentially the same conclusions. Therefore, I reject your assertion that the news articles are fundamentally misrepresenting the science.

For instance, the Fox News article you posted earlier about the Gulf Stream slowing down, was also reported by many other news organizations -- a few of which I've listed below. I contend that they all report essentially the same information. Your moaning and groaning to the contrary does not change the science, nor does it reflect well on your judgement. How does it feel to be on the wrong side of history -- quite unnecessarily, I might add?

https://www.usnews.com/news/national...imate-extremes

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...n-1-600-years/

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...research-finds

https://sciencetrends.com/the-gulf-s...limate-change/

https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8300896.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...thats-bad-news

https://weather.com/news/news/2018-0...e-change-study
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Old 19-04-2018, 22:34   #524
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Wrong side of history??! More than a little melodramatic, no? Or is this just the moral shaming gambit for those who don't see things the same way. Next we'll read that if you don't believe in the entire AGW mantra then you don't love your children. What took you so long, btw??

I'm not preventing you from posting your extensive library of pro-CC articles & propaganda, only informing how they're coming across to me. If you believe that others find them credible or worthwhile, then by all means. You are aware, however, of the story about the boy who cried wolf too many times, right?

Bias and conformity are natural human traits, and ones which I'm certainly not immune from. But being able to identify and discount such influences seems more essential than ever these days. You obviously see things differently and I respect your commitment & devotion to one of the more important issues of our time. Showing a bit more tolerance for other points of view, however, could serve you and your cause well.
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Old 19-04-2018, 23:16   #525
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Too bad you blew it taking three days to figure out how to back-pedal. Three posts of ramblings followed by an unambiguous "Yes" doesn't quite align with your post dated versions of events.

Cool story though.

Since you cannot read minds and basic analytical skills would appear to escape you, you'll notice that CO2 emissions are in the process of stabilising yet atmospheric CO2 and average global temperatures are still increasing. This doesn't bode well for the concept of "rapidly stopping global warming" now, does it?

Yes, I am correct. You are are speaking in a mutually unintelligible language. Take this latest post of yours for an example. It's exceeded word salad status and is now borderline buffet.

Yes, because everyone knows that the jet stream dumps on deserts. Except for me, apparently.

If you are going to debate a point, I highly recommend you stay on point. Human survival, as Jacko was alluding to, does not hinge on an astronaut's ability to think clearly on a space station.

Thanks. It's a nice feeling to know I lead whilst others follow.

Ok. So aside from melting Arctic ice and submerging Miami, why do you think human civilization spews CO2 into the atmosphere? Why do you contribute your portion? I'm guessing it's because you don't live in a lean-to in some jungle somewhere filling your days by posting to the internet using baudot code on a communications device you've made from sea shells.

But yeah, totally ridiculous.

Yes, but keep at it. I'm sure you will improve with practice.
Still having trouble taking responsibility for your bloviations? For me, your behavior in this respect is really odd, because I've read you actually make very good sense in other regards. I find it really hard to believe that yours, mine, Newhauls, Sailoars, Exiles, Jackdales (where on earth do we put) Erics opinion on the real issue are very different; we all like the world that we live in. Kum by yahs aside, whether you or I personally like it or not, the time for ignorant self-promotion is long passed...
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