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Old 18-04-2018, 17:30   #496
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
NASA says humans can survive up to 5000 ppm atmospheric CO2.

Here's a little bit of trivia for you; If you compare atmospheric CO2 to human standards of living over the past 800000 years, there is a direct correlation. The more CO2, the better our living standards in all regards.
US Navy subs routinely see 2000 ppm co2 . And those boys have no ill effects.
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:38   #497
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Always important to look at the bias of any particular source, but that doesn't mean the data is necessarily skewed. It might help your debating skills to read more from both sides.
I do read both sides. In my former life I was a debate coach and judge .
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:41   #498
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
US Navy subs routinely see 2000 ppm co2 . And those boys have no ill effects.
Higher CO2 levels impair cognition.

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...-brain-on-co2/
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:44   #499
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Not to change the subject or anything . . . . . . but here's one that SailOar may have missed, probably due to failing to round out his reading sources. It appeared in Fox News but no need to fear, it was sourced in turn from the Guardian.

Dying Gulf Stream may trigger a global nightmare | Fox News
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:48   #500
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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I do read both sides. In my former life I was a debate coach and judge .
Yes, you've mentioned this. When serving as a high school administrator and teacher as I recall. I find it odd then that being challenged on your positions on the CC debate seem to piss you off.
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:49   #501
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
"The seasonal decrease in recent decades therefore appears "abnormal." But is it?? And whatever its cause, we have no choice but to accept it, even if it continues and becomes the "new" normal, right?
It is not normal. Normal changes in the planets atmosphere and climate take places over hundreds of years, or even thousands of years. Now it is happening in as little as 20-30 years. It is not the change that is scary, it is the rate at which it is happening.

There are lots of things we can do about it, but most people are too lazy to do something.
Problem is also not necessarily the change on its own, but the pure financial cost of adopting to the change cannot be covered by our children and grandchildren.
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Old 18-04-2018, 17:52   #502
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Yes, you've mentioned this. When serving as a high school administrator and teacher as I recall. I find it odd then that being challenged on your positions on the CC debate seem to piss you off.
I like being challenged and I like debate. Dialectic is a great learning process.

What pisses me off is suppositions without substance and misrepresentations of my posts.

I have a board meeting to chair for the next couple hours. See you later.
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Old 18-04-2018, 18:02   #503
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

On a slight thread drift and to provide an example of how "life will find a way" (a.k.a. adapt - or is it actually re-adapt???), I give you...

Quote:
When the temperature soars, coral reefs might cool off by creating their own clouds.
Research from the Great Barrier Reef off the Australian coast shows that corals are packed full of the chemical dimethyl sulphide, or DMS. When released into the atmosphere, DMS helps clouds to form, which could have a large impact on the local climate.
In the air, DMS is transformed into an aerosol of tiny particles on which water vapour can condense to form clouds. This sulphur compound is also produced in large amounts by marine algae and gives the ocean its distinctive smell. Algae play a vital part in regulating Earth’s climate, but no one had looked at whether coral reefs might have a similar role.
Graham Jones of the Southern Cross University in Lismore, Australia, and colleagues measured DMS concentrations in corals in the Great Barrier Reef and its surrounding water. They found that the mucus exuded by the coral contained the highest concentrations of DMS so far recorded from any organism. A layer rich in DMS formed at the sea surface above the reef, where it was picked up by the wind.
“Although globally the emission of DMS from the Great Barrier Reef is not huge, on a regional basis it is very significant,” says Jones.
https://www.newscientist.com/article...l-the-climate/
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Old 18-04-2018, 18:13   #504
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
US Navy subs routinely see 2000 ppm co2 . And those boys have no ill effects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Higher CO2 levels impair cognition.

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...-brain-on-co2/

Oh my. Don't those guys have access to the nuke codes??
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Old 18-04-2018, 20:18   #505
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
On a slight thread drift and to provide an example of how "life will find a way" (a.k.a. adapt - or is it actually re-adapt???), I give you...



https://www.newscientist.com/article...l-the-climate/
I am always amazed what I find when I check out a post to verify its veracity. Turns out humans also produce dimethyl sulphide. However,I do not think we should encourage it as a means of combating climate change.

Quote:
The severity of smells associated with farts mostly has to do with the percentage of different gases present in the body at any given time. Surprisingly, most of the gas within a fart is odorless, and only a very small percent (around 1 percent) causes the signature foul smell of farts. The reason for stinkiness in general comes down to how much sulfurous gasses form within the intestines. (3)

Within a fart, several sulfur-related compounds develop that contribute to the intensity of the fart’s smell. These include:

Hydrogen sulphide: This is the component of a fart that usually smells like rotten eggs. Not only does it smell unpleasant, but it’s also flammable and can be toxic when consumed in large amounts. The human body makes some of its own hydrogen sulphide, but interestingly, it’s also produced within the environment in things like swamps, sewage systems and certain types of explosive volcanic rock.
Methanethiol: This is found naturally within the human body, mostly within the blood and brain. Ever open up your refrigerator and get a strong whiff of leftover veggies? Methanethiol has a strong smell similar to cruciferous veggies. including broccoli or cabbage. This same compound also contributes to other types of body odors including bad breath.
Dimethyl sulphide: Here’s another chemical compound that contributes to the smelliness of veggies. This is responsible for the smell produced when you cook things like Brussels sprouts. It’s present in foods along with methanethiol and created from the formation of certain bacteria.
https://draxe.com/flatulence/
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Old 18-04-2018, 21:02   #506
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
On a slight thread drift and to provide an example of how "life will find a way" (a.k.a. adapt - or is it actually re-adapt???), I give you...



https://www.newscientist.com/article...l-the-climate/
Something more current

Quote:
Global warming transforms coral reef assemblages

Terry P. Hughes, James T. Kerry, Andrew H. Baird, Sean R. Connolly, Andreas Dietzel, C. Mark Eakin, Scott F. Heron, Andrew S. Hoey, Mia O. Hoogenboom, Gang Liu, Michael J. McWilliam, Rachel J. Pears, Morgan S. Pratchett, William J. Skirving, Jessica S. Stella & Gergely Torda

Nature (2018)

doi:10.1038/s41586-018-0041-2



Received:
24 August 2017
Accepted:
16 March 2018
Published online:
18 April 2018

Abstract

Global warming is rapidly emerging as a universal threat to ecological integrity and function, highlighting the urgent need for a better understanding of the impact of heat exposure on the resilience of ecosystems and the people who depend on them1. Here we show that in the aftermath of the record-breaking marine heatwave on the Great Barrier Reef in 20162, corals began to die immediately on reefs where the accumulated heat exposure exceeded a critical threshold of degree heating weeks, which was 3–4 °C-weeks. After eight months, an exposure of 6 °C-weeks or more drove an unprecedented, regional-scale shift in the composition of coral assemblages, reflecting markedly divergent responses to heat stress by different taxa. Fast-growing staghorn and tabular corals suffered a catastrophic die-off, transforming the three-dimensionality and ecological functioning of 29% of the 3,863 reefs comprising the world’s largest coral reef system. Our study bridges the gap between the theory and practice of assessing the risk of ecosystem collapse, under the emerging framework for the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Red List of Ecosystems3, by rigorously defining both the initial and collapsed states, identifying the major driver of change, and establishing quantitative collapse thresholds. The increasing prevalence of post-bleaching mass mortality of corals represents a radical shift in the disturbance regimes of tropical reefs, both adding to and far exceeding the influence of recurrent cyclones and other local pulse events, presenting a fundamental challenge to the long-term future of these iconic ecosystems.
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Old 18-04-2018, 21:12   #507
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Something more current
Quote:
Global warming is rapidly emerging as a universal threat to ecological integrity and function, highlighting the urgent need for a better understanding of the impact of heat exposure on the resilience of ecosystems and the people who depend on them1. Here we show that in the aftermath of the record-breaking marine heatwave on the Great Barrier Reef in 20162,
I guess that's what my reference achieved. Corals making their own umbrellas.

That's excessively over current.


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Old 19-04-2018, 02:52   #508
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Now that wasn't hard now, was it?

Ok, so, I'm on the side calling BS to "yes". Now we can start the debate.







Over to you...
The 'yes', though absolutely true and and implementable, was a joke; a manipulative ploy lampooning your question, as well as an attempt to draw out the question you were obviously aching to ask, as well as an experiment to see what your response would be to an apparent 180 degree shift in my position that the answer was 'no', made clear 3 times in posts 411, 414 and 418...

If you were actually interested in learning anything, the best and most concise response to 'yes' would have been 'How?'.

Since I cannot read minds, I surmise that you have a point with the posting of the three graphs above, but due to your lack of expatiation, I am at a loss to determine what it is...one has to be patient with us non-intellectuals, so please, humor me by explaining what that point is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
AGW itself is not seriously disputed and is instead a political issue that has turned into religious-type zealotry for many. This necessarily stifles debate & thus encumbers learning, scientific or otherwise. The extent to which AGW is contributing to warming, and the impacts of that warming, are scientific issues. How we reduce the amount of CO2 & harmful pollutants entering the atmosphere, and how we adapt to environmental changes they may produce, are policy issues that are dependent on how the science continues to evolve.

These thread forums rarely get past the most basic & superficial issues, namely the politics. The best evidence of that is calling basic questions being asked as disingenuous, hypocritical, or coming from "deniers." It can only be explained if the zealotry reaches well beyond just AGW and involves beliefs that reject the entire economic & political systems that surround it. So I repeat, it's all about the politics, and AGW is merely the tail wagging the dog of much larger socioeconomic divisions within society.
Well, to use R/M's homely and unoriginal phrase, this seems to be a bona fide example of 'word salad' --if I understand the term correctly-- thusly.

The first paragraph sounds (and is in certain aspects, and aside from certain clumsinesses) reasonable; AGW is a fact; the 'debate', as is often the case, stems primarily from those who have (or believe they have [often as a result of manipulation by those that really do]) vested interests (usually economic [perhaps more accurately, financial]).

In my opinion, the term zealot should properly be applied to those who are exhibiting zeal by embracing claims not supported by evidence; it is, to say the least, disingenuous to call someone attempting to refute these spurious claims zealous; it is amusing to contemplate the somewhat circular nature of the fact that the louder and more unrealistic the claims of the zealots are, the more intricate and long-winded the explanations from the pragmatic realists are forced to become.

The second paragraph, however, is, to use another cliche, just a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black. There is ample evidence of many references to actual scientific studies, most of which can be understood through careful reading, but they are almost invariably provided by the the pragmatic realists, while the 'agenda arguments' and 'biased selective excerpts' almost always come from the zealots, often second hand via various industry-conflicted sources.

How this sentence

"The best evidence of that is calling basic questions being asked as disingenuous, hypocritical, or coming from "deniers." It can only be explained if the zealotry reaches well beyond just AGW and involves beliefs that reject the entire economic & political systems that surround it."

has anything to do with this sentence

"...transparently leading, presumably disingenuous questions that demonstrate your own zealotry, not to mention the hypocrisy of certainty expressed by your apparently negotiable trust in the empirical, established sciences involved in verifying AGW..."

is beyond me, unless R/M is correct and I am speaking in a mutually- unintelligible language.

As for

"It can only be explained if the zealotry reaches well beyond just AGW and involves beliefs that reject the entire economic & political systems that surround it. So I repeat, it's all about the politics, and AGW is merely the tail wagging the dog of much larger socioeconomic divisions within society."

What on earth are you saying? That warmistas are anarchists? or that there is a vast conspiracy of 'economic and political systems' somehow 'behind' AGW?

Certainly there are 'politics' involved with AGW, it would be at best naive to assume otherwise.

The 'tail wagging the dog' analogy is precisely backwards. The ability to survive is the premier prerequisite for any society, but especially society-as-we-know-it-now. Climate is the ultimate factor that determines that survival; all others are proximate factors.

Some examples of the 'economic & political systems' that 'surround' AGW, all from one source.







and just for grins, from this side of the pond






Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik de Jong View Post
3. Although never officially proven is my personal suspicion (and observation) that icebreaker activity helps the disappearing of ice as well.
The effect is so negligible as to be non-existent. The Canadian Archipelago
will likely be the last stronghold of Arctic ice, the open Arctic will be ice-free in the summer well before the loss of the last of the Canadian ice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post



Arctic sea ice, with its strong seasonal variability (Fig. 1), is a critical component in the global climate system, contributing to changes in the Earth’s albedo, primary productivity and deep-water formation. Over the last few decades, this sea ice has decreased dramatically, and the causes of these recent changes, i.e. natural vs. anthropogenic forcings, are poorly understood. [emphasis mine].

And yet some posters on here must feel that they understand such complex systems better than actual scientists since they consistently leave out information that runs counter to their personal beliefs or agendas. That, my friends, has nothing to do with science.
Once again, best to look in the mirror...

You're quoting a section of an introduction, no less, to promote your agenda of supposed scientific uncertainty, apparently oblivious to the fact that the stated uncertainty enhances rather than detracts from the credibility.

That is what truly has nothing to do with science...

A slightly more inclusive section of the introduction

Arctic sea ice, with its strong seasonal variability (Fig. 1), is a
critical component in the global climate system, contributing
to changes in the Earth’s albedo, primary productivity and
deep-water formation. Over the last few decades, this sea ice
has decreased dramatically, and the causes of these recent
changes, i.e. natural vs. anthropogenic forcings, are poorly
understood (Johannessen et al., 2004; Serreze et al., 2007;
Stroeve et al., 2007, 2012; Markus et al., 2009; Screen and
Simmonds, 2010; Maslanik et al., 2011; Serreze and Stroeve,
2015). In this context, records of past climate and sea ice
conditions going beyond instrumental records and represent-
ing times of different boundary conditions may help to
decipher the processes controlling Arctic climate and sea ice
variability (cf. Sundqvist et al., 2014; Briner et al., 2016;
Kaufman et al., 2016). By this, such records contribute to
a better understanding of the complex Arctic Ocean–
atmosphere–ice system and its role in the past, modern and
future global climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Europe looks like heat Island effect and why are the deserts heating up?
Perhaps you should look up the effects of global warming, man-made or not, on the speed and nature of the jet stream...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
NASA says humans can survive up to 5000 ppm atmospheric CO2.

Here's a little bit of trivia for you; If you compare atmospheric CO2 to human standards of living over the past 800000 years, there is a direct correlation. The more CO2, the better our living standards in all regards.
"NASA has also observed CO2-related health impacts on International Space Station (ISS) astronauts at much lower CO2 levels than expected and has identified a mechanism by which CO2 levels could affect the brain... As a result, NASA has already lowered the maximum allowable CO2 levels on the space station. The ISS crew surgeon who is the lead for studying the impact on astronauts of CO2 (and other gases) told Climate Progress he considers the original LBNL-SUNY study “very credible.” Indeed, NASA itself is now starting terrestrial studies to look at the impact of CO2 on judgment and decision-making for the astronaut cohort..."

I'll follow your lead here in lack of attribution...

I guess no one says 'trivia' has to be true...the ambiguity and impreciseness of

"If you compare atmospheric CO2 to human standards of living over the past 800000 years, there is a direct correlation. The more CO2, the better our living standards in all regards."

only enhances it ridiculousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Higher CO2 levels impair cognition.

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/...-brain-on-co2/
Apparently in some more than others...
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Old 19-04-2018, 04:04   #509
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Not to change the subject or anything . . . . . . but here's one that SailOar may have missed, probably due to failing to round out his reading sources. It appeared in Fox News but no need to fear, it was sourced in turn from the Guardian.

Dying Gulf Stream may trigger a global nightmare | Fox News
No, I didn't miss it. But thank you for mentioning it.

Since this thread is supposed to be about the Northwest Passage, I try to self-limit my posts to at least Arctic-related topics, my most recent post notwithstanding.

On other climate-related threads that I participate in, where I feel more comfortable bringing up a broader range of AGW topics, I can often make one or more posts per day reporting current research or news. For instance, here are seven articles I consider worthy of attention, but which I probably wouldn't bring up on this thread because they are too far off topic. You AGW-deniers are really a joke -- albeit a politically and financially powerful joke.

Warm water rapidly melting Antarctica from below due to climate change

The 8 Million Species We Don’t Know

A North American Climate Boundary Has Shifted 140 Miles East Due to Global Warming

Seabirds Aren’t Keeping Pace With Climate Change

Climate change could trigger volcanic eruptions across the world


Climate Lawsuits, Once Limited to the Coasts, Jump Inland

Corals on Great Barrier Reef will never be the same after back-to-back heat waves
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Old 19-04-2018, 09:53   #510
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

For anyone in the Annapolis area.

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