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Old 13-04-2018, 15:21   #406
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Good to see the familiar cast of characters at it again, although a couple of you might benefit from changing your presentations a bit. They are getting all too predictable, albeit still somewhat entertaining.

Just to mix things up a bit, perhaps a tack back to the science surrounding the ability of the planet to absorb CO2 might be worthwhile at this point. I found it so in previous threads anyway.

Here's a piece that asserts that nitrogen has been underestimated by mainstream science, and more recent discoveries have confirmed that it does not just exist in the air as previously assumed, but that plants can tap into quantities that exist in the soil and even bedrock. If true, this could explain why the many predicted doomsday scenarios have yet to occur, and why the planet seems more resistant to increasing CO2 levels than previously thought.

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...itrogen-rocks/

Now in a probably futile effort to save pages of mindless debate, IBD is unashamedly biased when it comes to its views on CC, exaggerates the titles of its articles & section headings, but imo appropriately sources its factual assertions and generally makes it clear when its merely advancing its own opinion. More than I can say for SailOar's countless blue-typed article headings which he apparently believes are so convincing to anyone other than himself.

In this case there's no need to attack IBD or its biases since the findings being discussed were published in respected (I think) scientific journals. I am not familiar with the scientists who published the research, but it wouldn't surprise me if Jack told us they were getting paid off by "Big Oil." Oh, and there is a quote from the ClimateDepot guy but I'm confident we can all work through it.

So my questions are:

1. Do the scientists, pseudo-scientists, intellectuals & pseudo-intellectuals who frequent these threads find these discoveries re: new sources of nitrogen & thus plant growth compelling, nonsensical, or merely inconsequential?

2. Will anyone dare admit that one of the largest contributors to the reduction of CO2 over the past 10 years has been the US fracking industry? (approx. equal to all the expensive "green" efforts of the entire EU combined). Do a quick google search guys, and post those charts & graphs!

3. Will anyone get off their unicorns long enough to answer Reef's question how we can rapidly eliminate MMGW? Other than the significant contributions from the fracking industry that is, and its production of cheap, cleaner burning natural gas. (see #2 above). You see, without such solutions and a degree of pragmatism, the advocates of the CC agenda risk having their cause relegated to . . . well . . . the outer reaches of an enthusiast sailing forum with a pretty limited following. Just sayin' . . . .
that was an interesting article it crossed my desk as well and I do try to read any information that may have any new ideas or knowledge to absorb.

Yes co2 has been reduced by fracking .
As far as MMGWC or AGWC whichever you want to refer to it as is just so much hype. That's why they changed the name to climate change ( so they are correct regardless of what it does.) Humans have little effect on the planet and climate. It is changing it has always changed and will continue to change regardless of what humans do to the atmosphere short of using nuclear explosive devices.
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Old 13-04-2018, 17:27   #407
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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...Here's a piece that asserts that nitrogen has been underestimated by mainstream science, and more recent discoveries have confirmed that it does not just exist in the air as previously assumed, but that plants can tap into quantities that exist in the soil and even bedrock. If true, this could explain why the many predicted doomsday scenarios have yet to occur, and why the planet seems more resistant to increasing CO2 levels than previously thought.

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...itrogen-rocks/
SCIENCE is certainly a well-regarded journal. It will be interesting to see how that new finding is incorporated into climate models.

IBD did get a bit carried away with its analysis, after presenting the findings regarding nitrogen.
Quote:
Now in a probably futile effort to save pages of mindless debate, IBD is unashamedly biased when it comes to its views on CC, exaggerates the titles of its articles & section headings, but imo appropriately sources its factual assertions and generally makes it clear when its merely advancing its own opinion. More than I can say for SailOar's countless blue-typed article headings which he apparently believes are so convincing to anyone other than himself.
For what it's worth, my "blue-typed article headings" are not blue by my choice, but simply as a result of the HTTP convention of making links blue -- just like your link (above) is blue. But thanks for reading them!

I would encourage newhaul to be more generous in supplying those despised (by Exile) blue reference links for his many assertions.

Quote:
2. Will anyone dare admit that one of the largest contributors to the reduction of CO2 over the past 10 years has been the US fracking industry? (approx. equal to all the expensive "green" efforts of the entire EU combined). Do a quick google search guys, and post those charts & graphs!
No problem. Yes, the increased use of natural gas has resulted in a reduced use of coal, which in turn has reduced the amount of CO2 emitted (Though methane releases have greatly increased with natural gas production. Also, IIRC, US coal producers have increased exports, which may not count towards US CO2 emissions, but do count towards global CO2 emissions.).

Don't know how fracking compares to the increased use of solar and wind, but world-wide we are not close to meeting the +2C goal set by the Paris agreement, to say nothing of the preferred +1.5C goal.
Quote:
3. Will anyone get off their unicorns long enough to answer Reef's question how we can rapidly eliminate MMGW? Other than the significant contributions from the fracking industry that is, and its production of cheap, cleaner burning natural gas. (see #2 above). You see, without such solutions and a degree of pragmatism, the advocates of the CC agenda risk having their cause relegated to . . . well . . . the outer reaches of an enthusiast sailing forum with a pretty limited following. Just sayin' .
I am not aware of a method to "rapidly eliminate MMGW" without major changes in political will, public funding, and probably lifestyle changes. Given the current occupant of the White House, those types of discussions and decisions probably cannot be expected from the US in the next few years.
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Old 13-04-2018, 19:54   #408
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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SCIENCE is certainly a well-regarded journal. It will be interesting to see how that new finding is incorporated into climate models.

IBD did get a bit carried away with its analysis, after presenting the findings regarding nitrogen.

For what it's worth, my "blue-typed article headings" are not blue by my choice, but simply as a result of the HTTP convention of making links blue -- just like your link (above) is blue. But thanks for reading them!

I would encourage newhaul to be more generous in supplying those despised (by Exile) blue reference links for his many assertions.


No problem. Yes, the increased use of natural gas has resulted in a reduced use of coal, which in turn has reduced the amount of CO2 emitted (Though methane releases have greatly increased with natural gas production. Also, IIRC, US coal producers have increased exports, which may not count towards US CO2 emissions, but do count towards global CO2 emissions.).

Don't know how fracking compares to the increased use of solar and wind, but world-wide we are not close to meeting the +2C goal set by the Paris agreement, to say nothing of the preferred +1.5C goal.


I am not aware of a method to "rapidly eliminate MMGW" without major changes in political will, public funding, and probably lifestyle changes. Given the current occupant of the White House, those types of discussions and decisions probably cannot be expected from the US in the next few years.
its easy to get rid of just admit it's just a giant ponzi scheme. Problem solved.
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Old 13-04-2018, 20:03   #409
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

MMGW was just the idea dredged up from the 1880's by Margaret Thatcher and used to try to break a coal miners strike back in the mid 1980's
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Old 13-04-2018, 20:04   #410
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids
Here is the data just a day newer.
As I posted before

Spotless Days
Current Stretch: 0 days
2018 total: 63 days (61%) and this is in the list why?
2017 total: 104 days (28%) 3rd (almost a tie)
2016 total: 32 days (9%) 1st
2015 total: 0 days (0%) 2nd (almost a tie)
2014 total: 1 day (<1%) 4th
2013 total: 0 days (0%) 6th
2012 total: 0 days (0%) 10th
2011 total: 2 days (<1%) not in top ten
2010 total: 51 days (14%) 5th
2009 total: 260 days (71%) 8th
Updated 13 Apr 2018
Ranking according to NOAA
"Global Climate Report – Annual 2017". NOAA

So, if you mean that the number of spotless days results in cooler years, there is no correlation.

Similarly, if you mean the opposite, that the number of spotless days result in warmer years, there is no correlation.

Unless you have your own personal definition of 'correlation', that is...

Quote:
its looking like the opposite of what your leader Al gore said ( our children won't even remember what snow is)
its more like they won't remember what bare ground looks like.

not my job . Its jacks job to prove me wrong.
Interesting how you and others appear to place the same value to statements from unqualified popularizers (from whichever side is convenient to you) as to those of qualified statements from credentialed individuals...perhaps that goes a ways toward explaining y'alls apparent confusion and misunderstanding of the subject.

That you fail to understand the burden of proof (though it's been explained, obviously ineffectively, at least twice) is somehow not surprising.
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Old 13-04-2018, 20:43   #411
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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I think you have misunderstood me jimbo. I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm just stating facts. Do feel free to provide a valid argument - sans circa 1900 photos and stories of how your day went - that demonstrate it's possible to "rapidly stop global warming", however.
Well if you're unable to discern nuanced but pertinent visual and verbal points, the 'discussion' is both muted and banal...and probably futile for some cases.

That you think that anyone can "rapidly stop global warming", shows you've not been paying attention, or've been paying attention to the wrong sheeple, or completely misunderstand the phenomena entirely.

There is an abundant scientific literature on the subjects of mitigation, the chronological evolution of AGW, various scenarios describing the effects of x emissions over time, etc., many which have been linked to in threads like these.

Perhaps if you read some of them (the scientific papers from their sources, not the agenda-driven, cherry-picked, unreferenced 'journalism' often linked to, for example, here ...) you'd understand things a little better.
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Old 13-04-2018, 22:37   #412
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Well if you're unable to discern nuanced but pertinent visual and verbal points, the 'discussion' is both muted and banal...and probably futile for some cases.

That you think that anyone can "rapidly stop global warming", shows you've not been paying attention, or've been paying attention to the wrong sheeple, or completely misunderstand the phenomena entirely.

There is an abundant scientific literature on the subjects of mitigation, the chronological evolution of AGW, various scenarios describing the effects of x emissions over time, etc., many which have been linked to in threads like these.

Perhaps if you read some of them (the scientific papers from their sources, not the agenda-driven, cherry-picked, unreferenced 'journalism' often linked to, for example, here ...) you'd understand things a little better.
So does that word salad ^^^ mean you can surmise an argument, to wit, that we can "rapidly stop global warming" or not? Perhaps if you were to use quality rather than quantity in your expatiate writings, you'd make more sense.
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Old 13-04-2018, 23:04   #413
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Here's a piece that asserts that nitrogen has been underestimated by mainstream science, and more recent discoveries have confirmed that it does not just exist in the air as previously assumed, but that plants can tap into quantities that exist in the soil and even bedrock. If true, this could explain why the many predicted doomsday scenarios have yet to occur, and why the planet seems more resistant to increasing CO2 levels than previously thought.

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...itrogen-rocks/

...IBD is unashamedly biased when it comes to its views on CC, exaggerates the titles of its articles & section headings, but imo appropriately sources its factual assertions and generally makes it clear when its merely advancing its own opinion.


So my questions are:

1. Do the scientists, pseudo-scientists, intellectuals & pseudo-intellectuals who frequent these threads find these discoveries re: new sources of nitrogen & thus plant growth compelling, nonsensical, or merely inconsequential?

2. Will anyone dare admit that one of the largest contributors to the reduction of CO2 over the past 10 years has been the US fracking industry? (approx. equal to all the expensive "green" efforts of the entire EU combined). Do a quick google search guys, and post those charts & graphs!

3. Will anyone get off their unicorns long enough to answer Reef's question how we can rapidly eliminate MMGW? Other than the significant contributions from the fracking industry that is, and its production of cheap, cleaner burning natural gas. (see #2 above). You see, without such solutions and a degree of pragmatism, the advocates of the CC agenda risk having their cause relegated to . . . well . . . the outer reaches of an enthusiast sailing forum with a pretty limited following. Just sayin' . . . .
Just want to be sure, is this

A Startling New Discovery Could Destroy All Those Global Warming Doomsday Forecasts



the same article that you say


"...appropriately sources its factual assertions and generally makes it clear when its merely advancing its own opinion."


because there are no sources evident in the article that I could see.


If any of the unsourced, cherry-picked, and likely taken-out-of-context 'information' supplied in the article is accurate (and it might well be), a direct link to the paper itself would be the easiest and most efficient way to check the 'story's' veracity.


Unfortunately, the only links provided go right back to another AGW denial article in the IBD website itself (which of course provides revenue for IBD).


Since there are a few names given (is that your idea of a source?), if the paper(s) exists( ), I could probably find it (them) or at least it's (their) abstract(s), but what incentive have I been given to do so? A very loose collection of factoids and snippets, sorta compiled into a vague collection of insinuated conclusions and the alleged shortcomings of 'scientific paradigms'.





At this point, a sane, reasonable person would just let those facts speak for themselves, and relegate a non-credible source to the dustbin it belongs in...


But since you may have asked the three questions in good faith...

1) "...new sources of nitrogen & thus plant growth compelling, nonsensical, or merely inconsequential?"

If we knew what the discoveries were (see above) we could actually answer the question a little more concretely.

The only direct, large correlation I can think of off the top of my head might be the reduction of GHG caused by the production of nitrogenous fertilizer, which is produced electrically. The effects of the 'new nitrogen'
on plant growth as a carbon sink will likely be negligible; the nitrogen and it's availability and use by land plants hasn't changed. The effect on the models will have to be determined, but it is likely that it will be tiny.

2) Will anyone dare admit that one of the largest contributors to the reduction of CO2 over the past 10 years has been the US fracking industry?

Will anyone dare to admit that the constant over-simplification of such an extremely complex and dynamic set of systems is pervasive, and that such systems can't be quantified by such a simple ridiculous statement?

Here're two relatively short synopses on the subject.

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/20...nomy-grew.html

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-o...-gas-emissions

3) Will anyone get off their unicorns long enough to answer Reef's question how we can rapidly eliminate MMGW? Other than the significant contributions from the fracking industry that is, and its production of cheap, cleaner burning natural gas. (see #2 above). You see, without such solutions and a degree of pragmatism, the advocates of the CC agenda risk having their cause relegated to . . . well . . . the outer reaches of an enthusiast sailing forum with a pretty limited following. Just sayin' . . .

Again, so now there is a problem? Seems like quite a change from the denial claims ranging from 'there is no GW' to 'it's good' to it's not enough to matter' to 'man's to insignificant to change climate' etc., ad naseum.

If you think natural gas is a solution, you may want to review Jevons Paradox. More of a stop-gap stepping stone bridge to the future required by the very non-pragmatic policies followed over the last 25 or so years, instituted by a very short-sighted group of psuedo-profit hungry politicians and business 'leaders'.

As to your sudden claim to pragmatism, well I guess better late than never, but scientists and statesmen who recognized the scope of the problem have essentially always stressed the importance of pragmatic solutions.




Don't think "the advocates of the CC agenda risk having their cause relegated to . . . well . . . the outer reaches of an enthusiast sailing forum..." , as your linked IBD article suggests, is much to worry about...if AGW were to suddenly go away (an impossibility in the foreseeable future, by the way), there is a myriad of problems almost as pressing and seemingly intractable...
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Old 13-04-2018, 23:59   #414
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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So does that word salad ^^^ mean you can surmise an argument, to wit, that we can "rapidly stop global warming" or not? Perhaps if you were to use quality rather than quantity in your expatiate writings, you'd make more sense.
You do understand that words actually have meaning, don't you?


"That you think that anyone can "rapidly stop global warming", shows you've not been paying attention, or've been paying attention to the wrong sheeple, or completely misunderstand the phenomena entirely."


Though it is fairly obvious that it is futile to attempt to explain something to someone who apparently thinks a sentence more than 20 words long is 'word salad' (how original!).


The following is succinct advice given to address your ignorance of the subject. If you're unable to answer your own question (and see how nonsensical [on several different fronts] it actually is) after taking it, come back and try again.


"There is an abundant scientific literature on the subjects of mitigation, the chronological evolution of AGW, various scenarios describing the effects of x emissions over time, etc., many which have been linked to in threads like these.

Perhaps if you read some of them (the scientific papers from their sources, not the agenda-driven, cherry-picked, unreferenced 'journalism' often linked to, for example, here ...) you'd understand things a little better."


And, by the way, can you tell me what you mean by 'surmise an argument'? Could you actually mean propose or suggest, since 'surmise' as a verb generally means to suppose and as a noun a supposition, neither of which makes sense when used before 'an argument'?

Also, 'expatiate writing' is redundant, more properly written the sentence would read

"Perhaps if you were to use quality rather than quantity in your expatiation, you'd make more sense."

Just so we're all clear about who's actually providing the greens...
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Old 14-04-2018, 00:06   #415
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

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Old 14-04-2018, 06:22   #416
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
You do understand that words actually have meaning, don't you?


"That you think that anyone can "rapidly stop global warming", shows you've not been paying attention, or've been paying attention to the wrong sheeple, or completely misunderstand the phenomena entirely."


Though it is fairly obvious that it is futile to attempt to explain something to someone who apparently thinks a sentence more than 20 words long is 'word salad' (how original!).


The following is succinct advice given to address your ignorance of the subject. If you're unable to answer your own question (and see how nonsensical [on several different fronts] it actually is) after taking it, come back and try again.


"There is an abundant scientific literature on the subjects of mitigation, the chronological evolution of AGW, various scenarios describing the effects of x emissions over time, etc., many which have been linked to in threads like these.

Perhaps if you read some of them (the scientific papers from their sources, not the agenda-driven, cherry-picked, unreferenced 'journalism' often linked to, for example, here ...) you'd understand things a little better."


And, by the way, can you tell me what you mean by 'surmise an argument'? Could you actually mean propose or suggest, since 'surmise' as a verb generally means to suppose and as a noun a supposition, neither of which makes sense when used before 'an argument'?

Also, 'expatiate writing' is redundant, more properly written the sentence would read

"Perhaps if you were to use quality rather than quantity in your expatiation, you'd make more sense."

Just so we're all clear about who's actually providing the greens...
So I take it you have nuttin'? For a new and unique experience, you can respond a with simple "yes" or "no" instead of your regular high falutin proclamations of which only you appear to understand. Don't get me wrong; I do understand the frustration you must be feeling knowing that all those years of spelling and grammar policing, along with the constant honing of your elocution skills, have amounted to nought, zip, nada thanks to the introduction of the humble word processor followed by the killer blow of Alphabet Inc. Be that as it may, a succinct response will also help us unwashed masses follow along.

Then, with that out of the way, we can move on to the claim that "it's the worst it's been for a thousand years and it can only be because of man made climate change" (to paraphrase) from the same article.
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Old 14-04-2018, 06:46   #417
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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MMGW was just the idea dredged up from the 1880's by Margaret Thatcher and used to try to break a coal miners strike back in the mid 1980's
According to whom? Supported by what evidence?

Contrary evidence suggests Thatcher caused the strike by appointing Ian MacGregor, who surreptitiously planned to close at least 70 pits, eliminating thousands of jobs...yet another instance of a neo-liberal government policy's distorted placing of 'profit' over the ability of people to maintain themselves by performing at least some kind of job...from what I can determine, these people weren't striking for wages, but for their very jobs!


Though the 'history of MMGW' goes back to at least the Renaissance, three of the main players, in chronological order, were John Tyndall, Svante Arrhenius and David Keeling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tyndall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_David_Keeling

How someone who has entered thousands of posts on the subject either doesn't know this, pretends not to, or disregards matter-of-record facts about it illustrates just how far people will let their--- beliefs?---emotions?---feelings?--- distort their perception of the world.
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Old 14-04-2018, 07:21   #418
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
So I take it you have nuttin'? For a new and unique experience, you can respond a with simple "yes" or "no" instead of your regular high falutin proclamations of which only you appear to understand. Don't get me wrong; I do understand the frustration you must be feeling knowing that all those years of spelling and grammar policing, along with the constant honing of your elocution skills, have amounted to nought, zip, nada thanks to the introduction of the humble word processor followed by the killer blow of Alphabet Inc. Be that as it may, a succinct response will also help us unwashed masses follow along.

Then, with that out of the way, we can move on to the claim that "it's the worst it's been for a thousand years and it can only be because of man made climate change" (to paraphrase) from the same article.
"That you think that anyone can "rapidly stop global warming"...

Read much?

Perhaps you might employ some of this

"...humble word processor followed by the killer blow of Alphabet Inc."

to make your questions and statements more intelligible, along with a dictionary, encyclopedia, and perhaps, a little proofreading for such conventions as logic, train of thought, inference, clarity, concision, etc...and who knows?, an added benefit could be that some of it might rub off on your reading comprehension skills.

If, Atticus Finch-like, you're fishing for a specific answer to a question you already know the answer to, so you can pounce with a snappy retort, sorry, you're out of luck.

If you really want an answer to such an ill-defined question, perhaps you should either ask it of one of your psuedo-skeptic cohorts, or refine the question so it is actually worth answering.

By the way, 'stopping', or the ability to 'stop global warming', rapidly or otherwise would be the ultimate weapon...
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Old 14-04-2018, 07:39   #419
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
So I take it you have nuttin'? For a new and unique experience, you can respond a with simple "yes" or "no" instead of your regular high falutin proclamations of which only you appear to understand. Don't get me wrong; I do understand the frustration you must be feeling knowing that all those years of spelling and grammar policing, along with the constant honing of your elocution skills, have amounted to nought, zip, nada thanks to the introduction of the humble word processor followed by the killer blow of Alphabet Inc. Be that as it may, a succinct response will also help us unwashed masses follow along.

Then, with that out of the way, we can move on to the claim that "it's the worst it's been for a thousand years and it can only be because of man made climate change" (to paraphrase) from the same article.
Oh, and 'yes', (provided 3-5 years is 'rapid' [apologies for the verbosity])...
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Old 14-04-2018, 08:09   #420
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Seemed like it was worth repeating.
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