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Old 08-04-2018, 14:28   #346
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some history of the Northwest Passage

How a Fake Mountain Range Slowed Down Arctic Exploration | Atlas Obscura

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...Some are born great; some achieve greatness; some have greatness thrust upon them. And some narrowly miss greatness, kept from it by a pesky propensity to imagine land where there is none. Such is the case of Ross, who was just one fake mountain range away from discovering a critical entrance to the Northwest Passage, and more lasting explorational fame. No one is sure why he saw them—but, in the words of one biographer, the false mountains “would haunt Ross for the rest of his life.”...


Some actual mountains encountered (and sketched) by Ross.
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Old 08-04-2018, 16:36   #347
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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you are right I did say that so I suppose I should have been more precise and not have given you wiggle room .
Instead it should have been posted as sunspot number days.
That should fit better with high school math and science classes.
Please show us the Pearson product coefficient of correlation between sunspot number days and temperature. Actually a graph would do.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:58   #348
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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actually its not the composition of the respective atmospheres it is atmospheric pressure . That determines the base temperature. Then solar forcing accounts for variances.

Umm, so what part of the definition of the word 'composition' excludes 'pressure'?

com·po·si·tion
ˌkämpəˈziSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: composition
1.
the nature of something's ingredients or constituents; the way in which a whole or mixture is made up.


So now you're disputing the fact that different elemental gases have different radiative, absorptive and insulative properties?

What determines the 'base temperature' is the amount of energy received from the sun by the earth. What determines the actual temperature are the ratios of the respective gases constituting the atmosphere. This is a fact, no matter how much you and your cohorts try to disprove it by decree.

A simple, junior-high level experiment easily verifies this. Given your alleged trust in (at least some) science, perhaps you'd like to perform it and let us know what you find...

https://education.usgs.gov/lessons/gases.pdf
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:01   #349
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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actually its not the composition of the respective atmospheres it is atmospheric pressure . That determines the base temperature. Then solar forcing accounts for variances.
Really - why does a fire extinguisher or a car tire not stay warm after it is pressurized?
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Old 09-04-2018, 08:08   #350
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Umm, so what part of the definition of the word 'composition' excludes 'pressure'?

com·po·si·tion
ˌkämpəˈziSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: composition
1.
the nature of something's ingredients or constituents; the way in which a whole or mixture is made up.


So now you're disputing the fact that different elemental gases have different radiative, absorptive and insulative properties?

What determines the 'base temperature' is the amount of energy received from the sun by the earth. What determines the actual temperature are the ratios of the respective gases constituting the atmosphere. This is a fact, no matter how much you and your cohorts try to disprove it by decree.

A simple, junior-high level experiment easily verifies this. Given your alleged trust in (at least some) science, perhaps you'd like to perform it and let us know what you find...

https://education.usgs.gov/lessons/gases.pdf
where in your definition of composition does it say anything about the pressure that the composition is being held at.
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:42   #351
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Really - why does a fire extinguisher or a car tire not stay warm after it is pressurized?
you figure it out using Boyle’s law.
I won't so your homework for you.
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Old 09-04-2018, 14:42   #352
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
you figure it out using Boyle’s law.
I won't so your homework for you.
It is a rhetorical question.

Quote:
"atmospheric pressure . That determines the base temperature. Then solar forcing accounts for variances.
Please show us the peer-reviewed science behind that assertion. Or maybe just any science.
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Old 09-04-2018, 14:45   #353
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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where in your definition of composition does it say anything about the pressure that the composition is being held at.
Pressure is a function of the elemental composition of the gas, the quantity per unit volume and, in the case of an atmosphere, the gravity of it's resident planet. It is an inherent quality in any collection of massive particles in a gravitional system, and thusly would be implied in it's 'nature' and the 'way it is made up'.


"the nature of something's ingredients or constituents; the way in which a whole or mixture is made up"


The
definition (not my definition) assumes that the reader comprehends that different words can be used to explain and understand other words.


The sentence that set this (yet another) wild goose chase off reads exactly the same with the addition of two words

"For planets with atmospheres, the average temperatures are controlled primarily by the composition (and pressure) of their respective atmospheres. This has been demonstrated empirically on, and verified by, comparisons of the four inner planets of our solar system"

but since pressure is inherent in the composition, the words 'and pressure' are redundant, and were, believe it or not, edited out for that redundancy...though it may not be entirely evident, I usually try and strike some sort of balance between succinctness and explanation (haha).
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Old 09-04-2018, 15:14   #354
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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you figure it out using Boyle’s law.
I won't so your homework for you.
Boyle's law deals with volume and pressure, not temperature.

Since solar activity and sunspot activity are declining and temperatures are increasing , you must think that barometric pressure is increasing, or that the volume is decreasing, in spite of that fact that tropopause is increasing in altitude.

You should be using the the ideal gas law:

pV=kNT

where
P is the pressure
V is the volume
N is the number of gas molecules
k is the Boltzmann constant (1.381×10−23 J·K−1 in SI units)
T is the temperature (K)
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:40   #355
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

New technique more accurately reflects ponds on Arctic sea ice | University of Chicago

“...sea ice cover has been shrinking, and significantly faster than our models predict,” said Predrag Popović, a UChicago graduate student and first author of the paper. “So we’re looking for where the discrepancy might be.”

One possibility is melt ponds. As the sun shines and the ice melts, ponds of water form atop the ice. These ponds absorb extra sunlight, because they’re darker than ice, which in turn causes the rest of the ice to melt faster. Their size and shape also influence how ice breaks up, and how much light gets to organisms living below the ice.

Popović, along with Prof. Mary Silber and Assoc. Prof. Dorian Abbot of the University of Chicago, wondered if there was a better way to statistically model these ponds. Their “void” method starts by creating a series of random circles, allowing them to overlap and considering the voids between the circles as melt ponds.

This turns out to be quite effective at estimating how actual melt ponds form and behave, which they found by comparing them to aerial images of melts taken in 1998 and 2005.

Simpler math is particularly helpful for scientists trying to build global climate models, which are already massively complicated and computationally expensive....


(Left): Aerial photos of actual melt ponds atop Arctic sea ice.
(Right): A mathematical trick to model these ponds easily and accurately in large climate models.
(Images courtesy of Healy–Oden Trans-Arctic Expedition (2005) and Popović et al.)
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Old 10-04-2018, 21:40   #356
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
New technique more accurately reflects ponds on Arctic sea ice | University of Chicago

“...sea ice cover has been shrinking, and significantly faster than our models predict,” said Predrag Popović, a UChicago graduate student and first author of the paper. “So we’re looking for where the discrepancy might be.”

One possibility is melt ponds. As the sun shines and the ice melts, ponds of water form atop the ice. These ponds absorb extra sunlight, because they’re darker than ice, which in turn causes the rest of the ice to melt faster. Their size and shape also influence how ice breaks up, and how much light gets to organisms living below the ice.

Popović, along with Prof. Mary Silber and Assoc. Prof. Dorian Abbot of the University of Chicago, wondered if there was a better way to statistically model these ponds. Their “void” method starts by creating a series of random circles, allowing them to overlap and considering the voids between the circles as melt ponds.

This turns out to be quite effective at estimating how actual melt ponds form and behave, which they found by comparing them to aerial images of melts taken in 1998 and 2005.

Simpler math is particularly helpful for scientists trying to build global climate models, which are already massively complicated and computationally expensive....


(Left): Aerial photos of actual melt ponds atop Arctic sea ice.
(Right): A mathematical trick to model these ponds easily and accurately in large climate models.
(Images courtesy of Healy–Oden Trans-Arctic Expedition (2005) and Popović et al.)
and notoriously inaccurate, the models that is
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Old 11-04-2018, 07:01   #357
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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and notoriously inaccurate, the models that is
And the proof for that assertion is?
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:38   #358
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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and notoriously inaccurate, the models that is
Yup. Just can't trust those money-grubbing scientists and their unreliable models.

Stronger evidence for a weaker Atlantic overturning | PHYS.org

The Atlantic overturning—one of Earth's most important heat transport systems, pumping warm water northward and cold water southward—is weaker today than any time before in more than 1000 years. Sea surface temperature data analysis provides new evidence that this major ocean circulation has slowed down by roughly 15 percent since the middle of the 20th century, according to a study published in the highly renowned journal Nature by an international team of scientists. Human-made climate change is a prime suspect for these worrying observations.

"The specific trend pattern we found in measurements looks exactly like what is predicted by computer simulations as a result of a slowdown in the Gulf Stream System, and I see no other plausible explanation for it," says Rahmstorf. It is in fact not just the pattern in space that matches between computer simulation and observations, but also the change with the seasons.

"If we do not rapidly stop global warming, we must expect a further long-term slowdown of the Atlantic overturning. We are only beginning to understand the consequences of this unprecedented process—but they might be disruptive."


The Atlantic overturning circulation, also known as the Gulf Stream System, brings warm waters from the South to the North where it sinks into the deep and transports cold water from the North to the South. A weakening of this major ocean circulation can have widespread and potentially disruptive effects.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:08   #359
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Yup. Just can't trust those money-grubbing scientists and their unreliable models.[/I]
not money grubbing just a simple truth the ipcc models have been proven to be significantly higher. (From 1 to 5 deg ) above the actual temperatures as recorded by weather stations that are actually still reporting .
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:33   #360
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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not money grubbing just a simple truth the ipcc models have been proven to be significantly higher. (From 1 to 5 deg ) above the actual temperatures as recorded by weather stations that are actually still reporting .
Please some us evidence of a 1 to 5 deg (F of C) differential.

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