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Old 13-06-2018, 21:49   #1816
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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well gravity is after all just a theory.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...eption-gravity

Gravity is just TWO theories: Newton and Einstein. Newton's works well, they sent folks to the moon and back with it.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/rocket/newton.html

I like my theory better - "There is no gravity, the earth sucks"
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Old 14-06-2018, 01:02   #1817
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
you mean we can get back to a reasonable debate instead of the attacks on persons instead of at least attempting to understand some of the other peoples points of view

Btw your closeups show the same as the dmi graphics just closeup ( I assume for dramatic effect)

question Jim, When was the last time you were north of the Mason Dixon let alone into the arctic ocean?
Btw, this statement "your closeups show the same as the dmi graphics just closeup' illustrates quite succinctly your inability to comprehend basic visual information. I'll address Sailoar's flights of fantasy regarding your falsificational tendencies tomorrow...

Just for fun, an actual photograph of Nares Strait, from the Arctic Ocean to the east end of the NWP, as compared to the DMI model...seems the 'modeled' volume is rather inflated, if we use the real world metric, but please go ahead, keep repeating your rhetoric, the more you repeat it the mote valid it becomes...


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Old 14-06-2018, 03:45   #1818
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
See, you totally missed my inference.

One statement implies that the East Antarctic ice sheet has "reduced growth" whilst the other implies it "has remained close to a state of balance". Perhaps if the latter statement had been "had remained...." I might somewhat agree with you....
I still don't understand why "reduced growth" and "close to a state of balance" are necessarily inconsistent with one another? It seems to me that those two statements fairly describe the graph, which in turn accurately describes what the scientists believe is happening in Antarctica.

But even if there is some obscure technical grammatical inconsistency between the two statements, it hardly warrants your rabid, salivating pronouncement:

"The grant devouring, doomist and gloomist brigade are now even contradicting themselves."
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Old 14-06-2018, 04:07   #1819
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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These first two article have to do with the possibility that the bottom of the Ross Ice Shelf may be freezing, rather than the expected melting. No explanation was given for what they saw.

While the phenomena is apparently puzzling, there is no indication from the articles that there is a significant amount of ice being added to the ice shelf. And even if there was, it would have been picked up and included in the satellite analysis of the study of my original post.
This 2015 article reports a controversial study that suggests Antarctica may be gaining mass. However, many scientists disagreed with the methodology used, so the question of whether Antarctica is gaining or loosing ice is still unresolved (as of 2015).
I'm surprised that you included this link, as it references more studies showing a loss of ice than a gain of ice -- thus tentatively supporting this recent and more comprehensive study.

Quote:
Most research shows the melt rate is so high that the continent is indeed losing ice. But in 2015, a group of NASA scientists published a controversial study that found Antarctica was instead gaining ice....

In one study published in Geophysical Research Letters earlier this month, researchers say East Antarctica is gaining three times less ice than the NASA scientists found — enough to easily tip the balance the other direction....

Zwally still stands by his 2015 study, but in an interview last week, he said ...The melt rates in West Antarctica just increased significantly. His calculations now show that the continent is in overall balance.
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Old 14-06-2018, 04:26   #1820
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Rapid Sea Level Rise Possible as Ocean Floods into Antarctica at up to 400 Meters Per Year | Robert Scribbler
Quote:
From west to east and in a growing number of places, a warming ocean is cutting its way deep into Antarctica. Grounding lines — the bases upon which mile-high glaciers come to rest as they meet the water — are in rapid retreat. And this ocean, heated by human fossil fuel burning, is beginning to flood chasms that tunnel for hundreds of miles beneath great mountains of ice.

Such an immense flood has the effect of speeding up glaciers as far away as 500 miles from the point of invasion. It does this by generating a kind of abyssal pit that the glacier more swiftly falls into. And as these watery pits widen, they risk pumping sea level rise to catastrophic levels of ten feet or more by the end of this Century....


A new study in Nature is the first to survey the rate of grounding line movement
around Antarctica’s entire perimeter. What it found was disturbing. A large number of major
glaciers are seeing historically rapid rates of grounding line retreat [red arrows] as only a
few glaciers show very slow rates of grounding line advance [blue arrows].
Image source: Hannes Konrad et al, Nature, University of Leeds.




A rapid retreat of glacial grounding lines has been observed in Antarctica | YouTube video
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Old 14-06-2018, 04:44   #1821
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Here are a couple of interesting comments to the above article:
Quote:
"The Imbecile-in-Chief has just announced that he is in direct negotiations with Antarctica and that global warming is no longer a threat."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Eight years of inaction on climate change during the Bush (W) administration and now even more lost time with Trump, possibly another 4 years if he isn't impeached. That's 12 years, longer than we may have left to moderate sea level rise.

We may look back at the US Supreme Court's intervention in the Florida recount as fatal for the survival of the human species. Gore had it right. Imagine where we'd be if he'd become president and we hadn't invaded Iraq. Absolutely pivotal."
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Old 14-06-2018, 05:08   #1822
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

"The greatest deception some men suffer are their own overly-simplistic, intolerant opinions."

-Alfonse, Leonardo da Vinci's younger brother
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Old 14-06-2018, 06:28   #1823
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Since the thread has drifted in the Antarctic

Quote:
Antarctica's Ice Loss Tripled in 5 Years, and that's Raising Sea Level Risks
The accelerating ice loss adds half a foot of sea level rise to the 2 feet already expected by the end of the century, increasing flood risk for coastal communities.
Quote:
The most complete assessment to date of Antarctica's ice sheets confirms that the meltdown accelerated sharply in the past five years, and there is no sign of a slowdown.

That means sea level is expected to rise at a rate that will catch some coastal communities unprepared despite persistent warnings, according to the international team of scientists publishing a series of related studies this week in the journal Nature.
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...e-nature-study
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Old 14-06-2018, 07:35   #1824
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Since the thread has drifted in the Antarctic





https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...e-nature-study
Well, at least your source acknowledged the existence of natural non-human related climate cycles it said "partly" contributed to the warmer air & ocean temps. Even if your choice of quotes from the article did not, of course.

Most if not all scientists agree on the warming, but differ on the amount the warming is attributed to human influences, primarily the increase of CO2. That's why I don't think you have to be a "denier," "skeptic," or anything other than a circumspect reader of these doomsday articles to want to know if there is evidence of these events occurring before, and particularly before the increased accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere. With the new sat tech it sounds like they may be able to now look back 10,000 years to better understand how the ice responds to warming, whether human-induced or not.

According to SailOar's posted articles anyway, it appears there is a "balance" present in Antarctica resulting from ice melting in the west from ocean currents and ice growing in the east from snowfall. The PHYS.org article, for e.g., warned about sea level rise due to accelerated ice melt in the west, but also said that increases in the east had achieved a "balance." So once again we may be looking at a natural normal cycle who's only distinction is that it's being more precisely researched for the first time. Surely there is a record of sustained flooding since humans began settling coastal areas that could help determine if the recent accelerated rate of ice loss is an aberration or not.
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Old 14-06-2018, 09:30   #1825
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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With the new sat tech it sounds like they may be able to now look back 10,000 years to better understand how the ice responds to warming

Spoiler alert: it melts.
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Old 14-06-2018, 10:58   #1826
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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...According to SailOar's posted articles anyway, it appears there is a "balance" present in Antarctica resulting from ice melting in the west from ocean currents and ice growing in the east from snowfall. The PHYS.org article, for e.g., warned about sea level rise due to accelerated ice melt in the west, but also said that increases in the east had achieved a "balance." So once again we may be looking at a natural normal cycle who's only distinction is that it's being more precisely researched for the first time. Surely there is a record of sustained flooding since humans began settling coastal areas that could help determine if the recent accelerated rate of ice loss is an aberration or not.
No, you are mistaken. Both of the articles I linked to, as well as Jackdale's article, are all referencing the same study.

And no, you are again mistaken to say that the ice loss/gain in Antarctica is balanced. The study said that the ice loss/gain is almost balanced in East Antarctica (which is what Reef had his tail in a knot about), but that there is a sharp loss in both West Antarctica and the Antarctic Peninsula. Taken as a whole, there has been a net loss of ice from Antarctic for a number of decades, but the rate of loss in the last decade has increased three-fold.

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Old 14-06-2018, 11:37   #1827
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

For those of you deniers who claim that the climate change methodology is not as rigorous as it should be, here is a significant article (in a different field) that bolsters your claim, somewhat obliquely. At least in this case, the major conclusions were not incorrect, just that the case should not have been made as definitively as was initially presented.

Why a major paper on the Mediterranean diet was just retracted and replaced | Washington Post

Another point one can draw from this article is that the main-stream media, which some so enjoy reviling, actually does report reputable studies which disagree with the current "meme" or "cult."
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Old 14-06-2018, 12:59   #1828
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
For those of you deniers who claim that the climate change methodology is not as rigorous as it should be, here is a significant article (in a different field) that bolsters your claim, somewhat obliquely. At least in this case, the major conclusions were not incorrect, just that the case should not have been made as definitively as was initially presented.

Why a major paper on the Mediterranean diet was just retracted and replaced | Washington Post

Another point one can draw from this article is that the main-stream media, which some so enjoy reviling, actually does report reputable studies which disagree with the current "meme" or "cult."
This is text of an email that I send Donna Laframboise in response to an article she wrote for GWPF, in which she claimed that climate science papers may be as faulty as papers in medical and other journals.

Quote:
I read "PEER REVIEW Why skepticism is essential" this weekend and feel the need to comment.

You state “If half of all peer-reviewed research ‘may simply be untrue’, half of all climate research may also be untrue. ” While you present many examples from fields such as medicine, physics, etc., you do not include one specific documented example from the field of climate science. Let me provide some.

1) Soon and Baliunas, 2003
2) Spencer and Braswell, 2011

As you must know, in both cases editors resigned after it was realized that the peer view process was seriously flawed.

In the Spring of 2003, Soon and Baliunas, with three additional co-authors, published a longer version of the paper in Energy and Environment. When asked about the publication in the Spring of 2003 of the revised version of the paper at the center of the Soon and Baliunas controversy, Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen said, "I'm following my political agenda -- a bit, anyway. But isn't that the right of the editor?"

+++++++++++++++++

In another case the publisher of a journal ceased publication after it was clear that the peer-review process for a special edition of the journal was highly flawed.

From the Copernicus Publications website:
Quote:
Copernicus Publications started publishing the journal Pattern Recognition in Physics (PRP) in March 2013. The journal idea was brought to Copernicus’ attention and was taken rather critically in the beginning, since the designated Editors-in-Chief were mentioned in the context of the debates of climate skeptics. However, the initiators asserted that the aim of the journal was to publish articles about patterns recognized in the full spectrum of physical disciplines rather than to focus on climate-research-related topics.
Recently, a special issue was compiled entitled “Pattern in solar variability, their planetary origin and terrestrial impacts”. Besides papers dealing with the observed patterns in the heliosphere, the special issue editors ultimately submitted their conclusions in which they “doubt the continued, even accelerated, warming as claimed by the IPCC project” (Pattern Recogn. Phys., 1, 205–206, 2013).
Copernicus Publications published the work and other special issue papers to provide the spectrum of the related papers to the scientists for their individual judgment. Following best practice in scholarly publishing, published articles cannot be removed afterwards.
In addition, the editors selected the referees on a nepotistic basis, which we regard as malpractice in scientific publishing and not in accordance with our publication ethics we expect to be followed by the editors.
Therefore, we at Copernicus Publications wish to distance ourselves from the apparent misuse of the originally agreed aims & scope of the journal as well as the malpractice regarding the review process, and decided on 17 January 2014 to cease the publication of PRP. Of course, scientific dispute is controversial and should allow contradictory opinions which can then be discussed within the scientific community. However, the recent developments including the expressed implications (see above) have led us to this drastic decision.
++++++++++++++

You further state “Reproducibility is the backbone of sound science.” I agree. The hockey stick has been reproduced at least 38 times using different data sets and different methodologies by different researchers.

While these examples of flawed peer-review come from “denialists” (to use the term employed Dr. Carl Mears of RSS), I am sure with your investigative skills you can find similarly egregious examples by “affirmers” of climate science. I would appreciate seeing those.
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Old 14-06-2018, 15:42   #1829
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

This just in for Alaska
https://forecast.weather.gov/wwamap/...torm%20Warning
And I thought it was summer :-)
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Old 14-06-2018, 15:53   #1830
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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This just in for Alaska
https://forecast.weather.gov/wwamap/...torm%20Warning
And I thought it was summer :-)
The Northeastern Brooks Range is a rather small portion of Alaska

Check the mean temperatures for the Brooks Range in June. The mean minumum is -1 C.

https://english.wunderground.com/his...eqdb.wmo=99999

Wikipedia shows an average June low of 2.1C

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaktu...Alaska#Climate
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