Northwest Passage - 2017

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by newhaul

my son was murdered in 2002 its just me and my dad now so I really don't care/ no dog in the fight.

So why enter the fight?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

So why enter the fight?

its not a fight as far as the discussion goes however if you look at all of the discussions I have been involved with in reference to global climate issues I have learned quite a bit as have several others . A discord makes people think and research a bit more than just saying its this way or that way.

Who are you the " MMGWC" threads police.

[newhaul]

Saying I don't have a dog in the fight just means it doesn't matter one way or the other to me in the long term.

[SailOar]

Chinese ship making first voyage through Canada's Northwest Passage | Globe and Mail

This past summer the Xue Long ("Snow Dragon"), a China's research icebreaker, made a circumpolar voyage that took it along the coasts of Russia, Norway and Greenland, as well as through the Northwest Passage. This voyage is assumed to be laying the foundations for China to sail cargo ships over the top of Canada by testing the feasibility of moving container ships through the melting Arctic seas.

Canada demands foreign vessels ask permission before sailing through the Northwest Passage, an Arctic route the Canadian government considers internal waters. The Chinese complied with Canada's requests. However, The United States disputes Canada's claims, arguing the passage is an international strait that should offer rights of transit passage.

China's acquiescent to Canadian demands reflects a dispute along its own coastline – a dispute that is remarkably similar to Canada's dispute with the United States. China considers the Qiongzhou Strait between the Chinese mainland and Hainan Island to be internal waters; the United States insists it is an international strait. For this reason, China has a legal interest in the Northwest Passage dispute: namely, to avoid the negative precedent that would result if the U.S. claim prevailed.


Chinese icebreaker Xue Long, or Snow Dragon, is shown docked in Shanghai in 2012

[ImaginaryNumber]

A new, all-weather road has just been formally opened in the Canadian Arctic, linking the towns of Inuvik, on the Mackenzie River, with Tuktoyaktuk, on the Arctic Ocean. Costing a cool $300 million for 137km of road, cruisers planning on sailing the Northwest Passage may find the road useful as either a resupply route, or as a way to exit the arctic by land if the NW Passage is not completed in one season.



As Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk Highway opens, will the $300M price tag be worth it? - North - CBC News

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by SailOar

Chinese ship making first voyage through Canada's Northwest Passage | Globe and Mail

This past summer the Xue Long ("Snow Dragon"), a China's research icebreaker, made a circumpolar voyage that took it along the coasts of Russia, Norway and Greenland, as well as through the Northwest Passage. This voyage is assumed to be laying the foundations for China to sail cargo ships over the top of Canada by testing the feasibility of moving container ships through the melting Arctic seas.

Canada demands foreign vessels ask permission before sailing through the Northwest Passage, an Arctic route the Canadian government considers internal waters. The Chinese complied with Canada's requests. However, The United States disputes Canada's claims, arguing the passage is an international strait that should offer rights of transit passage.

China's acquiescent to Canadian demands reflects a dispute along its own coastline – a dispute that is remarkably similar to Canada's dispute with the United States. China considers the Qiongzhou Strait between the Chinese mainland and Hainan Island to be internal waters; the United States insists it is an international strait. For this reason, China has a legal interest in the Northwest Passage dispute: namely, to avoid the negative precedent that would result if the U.S. claim prevailed.


Chinese icebreaker Xue Long, or Snow Dragon, is shown docked in Shanghai in 2012

Canada has far more reasons for their claim of internal waters than Russia. However now Russia is trying to prohibit ANY trafic in N-E passage except Russian owned,.

[Pete7]

Surely its a world away from sending an ice breaker through the NWP doing a bit of mapping to say a Chinese container ships bringing cheap mass produced goods to Europe.

Aren't they funding a new canal through Panama, would have thought whilst longer it will be a bit more reliable.

Interestingly the Arctic was on the UK news tonight, seems the US have visions of mining oil in the Arctic.

Pete

[SailOar]

The National Weather Service has started a new service called the Alaska Sea Ice Program. If I am understanding this map correctly they may be projecting that a large section of the Chukchi Sea will not freeze this winter??!!

Also, here is a news article that includes an interview with some of the people running the program.

Understanding NWS’ New Sea Ice Forecasts: Recap of Nov. 21st “Exchange”

[SailOar]

Open water in the Chukchi Sea | National Snow and Ice Data Center

Based on an analysis by Rick Thoman of the NOAA National Weather Service, as of 19 November, ice extent in the combined Beaufort and Chukchi Seas sector was the lowest ever observed in the sea ice record (Figure 4). This was largely driven by the lack of sea ice within the Chukchi Sea. By the end of November, the Beaufort Sea was completely ice-covered. The NOAA analysis makes use of the NSIDC Sea Ice Index data set. As discussed in our June 7 post, the current state of the ice cover in this region likely has its origin as far back as last year, when warm conditions favored the persistence of open water in the Chukchi Sea into December of 2016.

Strong winds from the north occurred for a few days at the end of March and early April, pushing ice southward in the Bering Sea, breaking up the ice in the Chukchi Sea, and even flushing some ice out through the Bering Strait. We also suggested a possible role of a strong oceanic heat inflow to the Chukchi Sea via Bering Strait. In support of this view, in the summer of 2017, Rebecca Woodgate of the University of Washington, Seattle, sailing on the research vessel Norseman II, recovered mooring data that indicated an early arrival of warm ocean water in the strait, about a month earlier than the average. This resulted in June ocean temperatures that were 3 degrees Celsius (5 degrees Fahrenheit) above average. Higher ocean temperatures in summer plays a large role in the timing of when the ice will form again in winter. There is likely a considerable amount of heat remaining in the top layer of the ocean, which will need to be lost to the atmosphere and outer space before the region becomes fully ice covered.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SailOar

The National Weather Service has started a new service called the Alaska Sea Ice Program. If I am understanding this map correctly they may be projecting that a large section of the Chukchi Sea will not freeze this winter??!!

Also, here is a news article that includes an interview with some of the people running the program.

Understanding NWS’ New Sea Ice Forecasts: Recap of Nov. 21st “Exchange”

sailoar I do believe that the picture you posted is current conditions not winter projections
Here is the current sea ice picture from MAISE on their home page.

MASIE Home | National Snow and Ice Data Center

edit: I just re looked at the page you linked to and the picture you posted is in fact the projected sea ice extent for 11 Dec 2017

[SailOar]

For reference purposes, this is the Arctic ice extent for 25 Feb 2015. It was the historic lowest maximum extent since satellites started being used for ice monitoring. The orange lines are average maximum extent. If the Chukchi Sea doesn't completely freeze, that will be a huge change.


http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/tag/maximum/

[SailOar]

Originally Posted by newhaul

sailoar I do believe that the picture you posted is current conditions not winter projections
Here is the current sea ice picture from MAISE on their home page.

MASIE Home | National Snow and Ice Data Center

edit: I just re looked at the page you linked to and the picture you posted is in fact the projected sea ice extent for 11 Dec 2017

That makes a lot more sense. Thanks

[SailOar]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Jack I was referring to the particulate matter in the exhaust that settles rapidly out and onto the ice. Not the longer lived voc's

Norwegian cruise company plans Northwest Passage transit with hybrid vessel | Nunatsiaq Online

The 250-metre-long Crystal Serenity, the largest passenger vessel to ever transit the Northwest Passage, first in 2016 and again in 2017, will not return to Canadian Arctic waters in 2018.

Hurtigruten, the big Norwegian cruise, ferry and cargo operator, plans to launch its new hybrid electric ship, the 140-metre MS Roald Amundsen, which it calls “the world’s greenest vessel,” on a 2019 voyage from Alaska to Greenland through the Northwest Passage.

It’s expected that the hybrid nature of Hurtigruten’s new vessels will reduce fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions by 20 per cent. And they will be able to sail with solely electric propulsion for up to 30 minutes, to allow for “absolutely silent cruising in sensitive areas,” Hurtigruten says.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SailOar

Norwegian cruise company plans Northwest Passage transit with hybrid vessel | Nunatsiaq Online

The 250-metre-long Crystal Serenity, the largest passenger vessel to ever transit the Northwest Passage, first in 2016 and again in 2017, will not return to Canadian Arctic waters in 2018.

Hurtigruten, the big Norwegian cruise, ferry and cargo operator, plans to launch its new hybrid electric ship, the 140-metre MS Roald Amundsen, which it calls “the world’s greenest vessel,” on a 2019 voyage from Alaska to Greenland through the Northwest Passage.

It’s expected that the hybrid nature of Hurtigruten’s new vessels will reduce fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions by 20 per cent. And they will be able to sail with solely electric propulsion for up to 30 minutes, to allow for “absolutely silent cruising in sensitive areas,” Hurtigruten says.

that's great news but would be even better if they all would stay out of the arctic for 2 years . Absolutely no ship traffic allowed bet that would help the sea ice . No ice breakers to disturb it.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by newhaul

that's great news but would be even better if they all would stay out of the arctic for 2 years . Absolutely no ship traffic allowed bet that would help the sea ice . No ice breakers to disturb it.

Ice breakers do not have any significant impact on sea ice extent.

https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/iceligh...anging-climate