Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Do tell.

BTW - I worked in an department in which 2 digit year was a serious problem. Damned cobol and fortan programmers. Enough resources were put in place that everything turned out fine.

Cobol and Fortran were obsolete as programming languages well before 2000. Legacy systems were affected. Modern 16 bit and higher computing, operating systems and programming languages did not suffer from Y2K date issues unless the application software had been extremely poorly programmed. As you no doubt know, Jackdale, date and time is stored and manipulated as a floating point number starting from some arbitrary reference e.g. 1970-01-01 for unix and 1899-12-31 for Windows/MSDOS and this turns date calculations and comparisons into simple floating point arithmetic which is most often automatically handled with functions built into the programming language. The major issue for developers using modern languages was in instances where they allowed a 2 digit year to be entered and then converted this into a four digit year. In this instance a simple algoritm was used (which I think was even incorporated into the Windows OS at the time) in which the two digit number assumed a past date if at a certain differential to the (2 digit notation) current year, or a future date otherwise.

It's not that there weren't problems, especially in the financial sectors that had a lot of legacy systems still in play. It was a scare-mongering beat up by those with vested interests that resulted in stupid claims as outlandish as suggesting planes might start falling out of the sky.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Bore us. Please.

What's the point?

But tell me, how small is your carbon footprint, sneuman?

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I'm not sure how some Pacific Islander residents would be feeling about those of you claiming there is nothing to fear about rising sea waters. Like the hundred thousand Kiribati residence as one example who are being forced to move to Fiji to live.

Of course there are a lot of examples of this, the Maldives, Seychelles, Torres Strait Islands, Tegua, Solomons, are just some that in the near future, 'our children' won't be able to sail too. I'm not sure if anyone anywhere disputes this.

But I'm ready for some more laughs if some one does.

Google "Subduction"

Enjoy your laughter.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by sneuman

This is how you can tell an interlocutor is being disingenuous ... and it applies completely to the deniers.

Argument 1: Deny that something is true. (The climate isn't changing)
Argument 2: Deny that you are part of the problem. (Ok, so maybe the climate IS changing, but humans aren't causing it).
Argument 3: Deny that anythng can be done about it. (Yeah, so the climate is changing, and it's our fault. But, nothing we do can change that).

Now, if you had any evidence or conviction in the first argument, you'd never need to get to #2 or #3.

But, many will, incredulously to the rest of us, make all three arguments simultaneously hoping they can bamboozle all of the people all of the time. It seems to me there's no better evidence that at the end of the day, they never believed their original argument and that their position has been taken for reasons political, economic or something other than the facts in question.

And the irony is that by raising the noise level with arguments #1 and #2, those folks could well make themselves right on Argument #3.

First, I've never heard anyone claim that the climate isn't changing so that argument seems to be yet another one going on entirely within the bounds of your own head. How could anyone who's ever heard of the dinosaurs or has ever read about the ice ages, entertain the idea that the climate never changes or is not changing. Of course it's changing and always have and always will. That's not news to anyone.

Second, none of us know whether we are part of the problem or not because we don't know that the current climate change IS a problem or how we may be impacting that change. If it's warming that's going on, my opinion is that's a good thing for most people and most crops. Some may feel that it would be more optimum if the world climate were cooler. But who really knows which is optimum?

Third, even IF we knew what needed to be done about the "problem" IF it really is proven to be a problem, we have no idea how we might impact it and IF we could, each individuals contribution would be infinitesimal. Also, even IF our generation of CO2 IS causing a problem, the time frame is such that the serious consequences will be after we are all dead and most people have a lot more urgent matters they are concerned about, such as how to pay for their grocery bill, or their healthcare, or trying to recover their health or any number of other things. You can say that's a sad commentary on human nature and I won't disagree, but when you have the biggest proponents of AGW jetsetting all over the world and living in multiple mansions, with a a carbon footprint that dwarfs any of ours, and even "normal" everyday warmists doing a lot more lecturing others and repeatedly getting caught telling only half the truth when it suits their agenda, than setting an example, it's pretty tough to detect much sincerity and decide to make a personal sacrifice "just in case" they happen to turn out to be right.

As for Jimmy Cornell, he's quoted as if he's some kind of authority on climate change. Of course he IS an authority on sailing and cruising, but he's no more an authority on climate change than anyone else who's lived as long and traveled and and had their eyes and ears open. I see he's currently sailing in a brand new aluminum boat he had custom built for himself and he's even encouraging others to build them too! It seems to me that if he REALLY was concerned about AGW, he'd feel it was extremely urgent to minimize his carbon footprint, both to do his part and to set an example for us "deniers." How many tons of CO2 do you suppose were generated in mining and smelting and forming the aluminum to build his boat, its engine and all its furnishings? I don't know, but I'd guess that it's many times the annual carbon footprint of most of the people who are currently being lectured to change their ways and make sacrifices for this unproven theory. I think that if I were a dedicated warmist and I really felt this was an urgent problem, I'd buy a used boat so as to not be the cause of any new mining or CO2 generation. Then, I'd sail my boat without hardly ever using the engine, or stay home in my super insulated house, and I'd plan every trip to the grocery store very carefully, and I certainly wouldn't travel halfway around the world with the associated spewing of tons of CO2 just to enjoy a nicer climate for a few weeks on vacation, etc. etc, but I don't see ANYBODY living that way! So I just have a hard time taking all this alarmist rhetoric very seriously. Don't tell me how much you care, SHOW me!

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

First, I've never heard anyone claim that the climate isn't changing so that argument seems to be yet another one going on entirely within the bounds of your own head. How could anyone who's ever heard of the dinosaurs or has ever read about the ice ages, entertain the idea that the climate never changes or is not changing. Of course it's changing and always have and always will. That's not news to anyone.

Second, none of us know whether we are part of the problem or not because we don't know that the current climate change IS a problem or how we may be impacting that change. If it's warming that's going on, my opinion is that's a good thing for most people and most crops. Some may feel that it would be more optimum if the world climate were cooler. But who really knows which is optimum?

Third, even IF we knew what needed to be done about the "problem" IF it really is proven to be a problem, we have no idea how we might impact it and IF we could, each individuals contribution would be infinitesimal. Also, even IF our generation of CO2 IS causing a problem, the time frame is such that the serious consequences will be after we are all dead and most people have a lot more urgent matters they are concerned about, such as how to pay for their grocery bill, or their healthcare, or trying to recover their health or any number of other things. You can say that's a sad commentary on human nature and I won't disagree, but when you have the biggest proponents of AGW jetsetting all over the world and living in multiple mansions, with a a carbon footprint that dwarfs any of ours, and even "normal" everyday warmists doing a lot more lecturing others and repeatedly getting caught telling only half the truth when it suits their agenda, than setting an example, it's pretty tough to detect much sincerity and decide to make a personal sacrifice "just in case" they happen to turn out to be right.

As for Jimmy Cornell, he's quoted as if he's some kind of authority on climate change. Of course he IS an authority on sailing and cruising, but he's no more an authority on climate change than anyone else who's lived as long and traveled and and had their eyes and ears open. I see he's currently sailing in a brand new aluminum boat he had custom built for himself and he's even encouraging others to build them too! It seems to me that if he REALLY was concerned about AGW, he'd feel it was extremely urgent to minimize his carbon footprint, both to do his part and to set an example for us "deniers." How many tons of CO2 do you suppose were generated in mining and smelting and forming the aluminum to build his boat, its engine and all its furnishings? I don't know, but I'd guess that it's many times the annual carbon footprint of most of the people who are currently being lectured to change their ways and make sacrifices for this unproven theory. I think that if I were a dedicated warmist and I really felt this was an urgent problem, I'd buy a used boat so as to not be the cause of any new mining or CO2 generation. Then, I'd sail my boat without hardly ever using the engine, or stay home in my super insulated house, and I'd plan every trip to the grocery store very carefully, and I certainly wouldn't travel halfway around the world with the associated spewing of tons of CO2 just to enjoy a nicer climate for a few weeks on vacation, etc. etc, but I don't see ANYBODY living that way! So I just have a hard time taking all this alarmist rhetoric very seriously. Don't tell me how much you care, SHOW me!

An interesting point about Aluminium vessels you made in deed. Aluminium is one of the most energy intensive metals to produce from ore. To contribute some sailing / boating input I'll also add that those of us with fibreglass boat's are actually helping prevent AGW by locking up carbon in the fossil fuel derived polyester resins used in their construction.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

What's the point?

But tell me, how small is your carbon footprint, sneuman?

Well, let's see: I live aboard. No a/c ... Only fans in summer. I use two small space heaters in winter. Until my schedule changed last year I took a private commuter bus into work (Annapolis to DC). I would say I am probably in the 95th+ percentile.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

First, I've never heard anyone claim that the climate isn't changing so that argument seems to be yet another one going on entirely within the bounds of your own head. How could anyone who's ever heard of the dinosaurs or has ever read about the ice ages, entertain the idea that the climate never changes or is not changing. Of course it's changing and always have and always will. That's not news to anyone.

Second, none of us know whether we are part of the problem or not because we don't know that the current climate change IS a problem or how we may be impacting that change. If it's warming that's going on, my opinion is that's a good thing for most people and most crops. Some may feel that it would be more optimum if the world climate were cooler. But who really knows which is optimum?

Third, even IF we knew what needed to be done about the "problem" IF it really is proven to be a problem, we have no idea how we might impact it and IF we could, each individuals contribution would be infinitesimal. Also, even IF our generation of CO2 IS causing a problem, the time frame is such that the serious consequences will be after we are all dead and most people have a lot more urgent matters they are concerned about, such as how to pay for their grocery bill, or their healthcare, or trying to recover their health or any number of other things. You can say that's a sad commentary on human nature and I won't disagree, but when you have the biggest proponents of AGW jetsetting all over the world and living in multiple mansions, with a a carbon footprint that dwarfs any of ours, and even "normal" everyday warmists doing a lot more lecturing others and repeatedly getting caught telling only half the truth when it suits their agenda, than setting an example, it's pretty tough to detect much sincerity and decide to make a personal sacrifice "just in case" they happen to turn out to be right.

As for Jimmy Cornell, he's quoted as if he's some kind of authority on climate change. Of course he IS an authority on sailing and cruising, but he's no more an authority on climate change than anyone else who's lived as long and traveled and and had their eyes and ears open. I see he's currently sailing in a brand new aluminum boat he had custom built for himself and he's even encouraging others to build them too! It seems to me that if he REALLY was concerned about AGW, he'd feel it was extremely urgent to minimize his carbon footprint, both to do his part and to set an example for us "deniers." How many tons of CO2 do you suppose were generated in mining and smelting and forming the aluminum to build his boat, its engine and all its furnishings? I don't know, but I'd guess that it's many times the annual carbon footprint of most of the people who are currently being lectured to change their ways and make sacrifices for this unproven theory. I think that if I were a dedicated warmist and I really felt this was an urgent problem, I'd buy a used boat so as to not be the cause of any new mining or CO2 generation. Then, I'd sail my boat without hardly ever using the engine, or stay home in my super insulated house, and I'd plan every trip to the grocery store very carefully, and I certainly wouldn't travel halfway around the world with the associated spewing of tons of CO2 just to enjoy a nicer climate for a few weeks on vacation, etc. etc, but I don't see ANYBODY living that way! So I just have a hard time taking all this alarmist rhetoric very seriously. Don't tell me how much you care, SHOW me!

Really?! You've never heard anyone claim that the climate is not changing?

You really expect me to believe that you've never heard of Sen. James Inhofe (R-Ok)? You know, the man who wrote a book called "The Greatest Hoax: How the Global Warming Conspiracy Threatens Your Future " and just happens to be the chairman of the Senate's environment committee.

Besides which, most of this thread has been a back and forth over graphs that either show or don't show a warming -- so there's no disputing that some or most of one side of the debate here denies that warming is taking place.

Re: Cornell. I take it you are not really someone who's much interested in cruising or you'd know that Cornell's weather-routing guides are something akin to the Bible for long-distance sailors. He has studied long-term weather trends and used them to develop World Cruising Routes and other books. So, within the context of sailing, there's probably no one who would be in a better position to have an informed view on the subject. But don't trust me. Feel free to take a poll on CF.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

But weather isn't climate. That's a pro-AGW prime argument.

Which is an argument to say that if it snows in your backyard that isn't the same as climate. Cornell is looking at weather on a global scale -- as are the climatologists. And, there's a growing consensus that warming is having an impact on global weather patterns.

[sneuman]

This just out today:
Arctic Ice Reaches a Low Winter Maximum
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...imum.html?_r=0

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Which is an argument to say that if it snows in your backyard that isn't the same as climate. Cornell is looking at weather on a global scale -- as are the climatologists. And, there's a growing consensus that warming is having an impact on global weather patterns.

Just because Jimmy Cornell expresses an opinion doesn't make him an authority. Just as you and I expressing an opinion does not make us an authority. To quote from the pro-AGW rulebook "Show us the peer reviewed research".

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Well, let's see: I live aboard. No a/c ... Only fans in summer. I use two small space heaters in winter. Until my schedule changed last year I took a private commuter bus into work (Annapolis to DC). I would say I am probably in the 95th+ percentile.

Kudos is in order.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

What's the point?

We would to know on which assumptions you base your conclusions.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by sneuman

This just out today:
Arctic Ice Reaches a Low Winter Maximum
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...imum.html?_r=0

I'm just taking a wild guess here, and of course it could nothing at all whatsoever to do with the exceptionally cold winter experienced in North America at the same time but the "missing" heat has to be dissipated somewhere, right?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by sneuman

This just out today:
Arctic Ice Reaches a Low Winter Maximum
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...imum.html?_r=0

A picture is worth 1000 words.



The NWP was open to commercial traffic in 2013. As was the NSR.

[capngeo]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Well, let's see: I live aboard. No a/c ... Only fans in summer. I use two small space heaters in winter. Until my schedule changed last year I took a private commuter bus into work (Annapolis to DC). I would say I am probably in the 95th+ percentile.

And those of us who drive big diesel trucks, live in perpetual 70° air-conditioned bliss (except for our two days of winter where we run the heat) Thank You..... Thank You Very Much!

Oh and BTW, I just caught up on the thread after being out all day.... I am officially adopting the "watermelon" for all my Green Friends... BRILLIANT!