Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-04-2015, 11:51   #1036
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
And an unnatural result of burning fossil fuels.
Maybe you need a little science lesson, but CO2 isn't an unnatural result of fossil fuel burning, but a natural result of combustion, it's Science 101.

Sheesh...is this the "science" level of understanding you have? It explains quite a bit....
__________________

__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 11:53   #1037
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,542
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post

(I note that the scientists who gave the alarm about pollution, which led to the regulations which provided the pollution control market that Rich so ably served... these were GOOD scientists, unlike those nasty conspiratorial, error-prone 'scientists' we have today. That is all)
Maybe afterwards....

Clair Cameron Patterson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
In his effort to ensure that lead was removed from gasoline (petrol), Patterson fought against the lobbying power of the Ethyl Corporation (which employed Kehoe), against the legacy of Thomas Midgley which included tetraethyllead and chlorofluorocarbons and against the lead additive industry as a whole. Following Patterson's criticism of the lead industry, he was refused contracts with many research organizations, including the supposedly neutral United States Public Health Service. In 1971 he was excluded from a National Research Council (NRC) panel on atmospheric lead contamination, even though he was the foremost expert on the subject at that time
__________________

__________________
conachair is online now  
Old 07-04-2015, 11:56   #1038
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,542
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
..... CO2 isn't an unnatural result of fossil fuel burning,
, but a result of "unnatural" fossil fuel burning
__________________
conachair is online now  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:02   #1039
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,834
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Including CO2 emissions?
Plant food.

__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is online now  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:02   #1040
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Maybe you need a little science lesson, but CO2 isn't an unnatural result of fossil fuel burning, but a natural result of combustion, it's Science 101.

Sheesh...is this the "science" level of understanding you have? It explains quite a bit....
Burning wood releases CO2 that would have been released through decomposition. That is part of the natural CO2 cycle. Burning fossil fuels has the resulted the 40% increase in CO2 over the past 250 years. 400 ppm has not been seen in 3,500,000 years. For the 800,000 years natural cycles keep CO2 levels between 180 and 300 ppm.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:12   #1041
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Melbourne Florida
Boat: Columbia 24
Posts: 98
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

In the meantime, plants will assimilate carbon from the atmosphere at a rate roughly proportional to the concentration of CO2
__________________
Eumelia is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:14   #1042
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumelia View Post
In the meantime, plants will assimilate carbon from the atmosphere at a rate roughly proportional to the concentration of CO2
How do you explain the 40% increase?
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:28   #1043
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 4,403
Images: 35
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumelia View Post
In the meantime, plants will assimilate carbon from the atmosphere at a rate roughly proportional to the concentration of CO2
What? That is wishful thinking that is not backed up by any data. At the same time we are burning ancient forests and swamps we are destroying the current forests and swamps that might be able to help us out. But as Jackdale says, how do we account for the 40% increase in CO2 seen currently? This thread seems to boil down to who do you choose, and decide, to believe? I have decided to go with the majority of scientists who look at the evidence, the data, the trends, the historical record, and are trying to alert us all.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is online now  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:09   #1044
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 995
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensen View Post
Evidence is evidence, it doesn't have bias.



"Us" as in mankind/human civilisation/global society. We've based our modern farming, settlement, transport, and more systems on certain temperates and climate behaviour. Altering them to suit a very rapidly changing climate will be hugely expensive, difficult and disruptive. Poorer nations hit by more frequent extreme weather will likely suffer famines and see mass migrations. Pacific island nations are already suffering more frequent and more extreme flooding.
It sounds like you have data and evidence confused with each other. Evidence does have bias because requires context and it involves interpretation. However, in most scientific disciplines, data does not have bias and there are very rigorous guidelines to avoid corrupting data in any way. But in the area of climate "science," it seems de rigueur for the "scientists" to constantly "adjust" their data to come up with the numbers they need to come to the conclusions they are paid to come to. I know that sounds awfully cynical but how else do you explain all other science working very hard to keep their data pure, but climate scientists constantly and shamelessly adjusting their data?

I'm relieved that it's not really either of "us" who has been harmed by global warming! It sounds like it's more like a friend of a friend of a second cousin once removed who knows a guy who was harmed. IF there was more extreme weather and it was definitively tied to AGW, then you'd have a point, but every year about this time we hear about the upcoming record breaking hurricane season we're about to have....and then that's about the last we hear about hurricanes until November when we find that we've had yet another year below normal hurricane frequency and intensity.
__________________
jtsailjt is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:17   #1045
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Melbourne Florida
Boat: Columbia 24
Posts: 98
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Just sayin'...I have no agenda here, just contributing to the dialogue. Check it out here:

http://www.columbia.edu/~vjd1/carbon.htm


The Carbon Cycle. The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related
__________________
Eumelia is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:23   #1046
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumelia View Post
Just sayin'...I have no agenda here, just contributing to the dialogue. Check it out here:

Carbon Cycle and the Earth's Climate


The Carbon Cycle. The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related
From your site

Greenhouse Gas Induced Global Warming

Since the industrial revolution got into full swing in the 19th century we have been burning ever increasing amounts of fossil fuels (coal, oil, gasoline, natural gas) in electric generating plants, manufacturing plants, trains, automobiles, airplanes, etc. Burning releases CO2 into the atmosphere (much the same as respiration does). These fossil fuels may have formed tens or hundreds of millions of years ago from the buried and preserved remains of plant and animal matter whose carbon originated via photosynthesis.

Sidebar: Photosynthesis - Respiration-Combustion

photosynthesis
CO2 + H2O + sunlight -> CH2O + O2
respiration
O2 + CH2O -> energy + H2O + CO2

combustion
O2 + hydrocarbons -> energy + H2O + CO2

Photosynthesis and respiration in plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, etc. exchange carbon between the CO2 in the atmosphere and carbon compounds in organisms. But humans are now putting this natural carbon cycle out of balance. Because of the emission of CO2 long-stored in fossil fuels the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased from about 289 parts per million before the industrial revolution to over 360 parts per million and rising. Sometime during the 21st century the concentration of CO2 will be twice what it was before the industrial revolution.

With higher CO2 concentrations come expectations of a stronger greenhouse effect and therefore warmer global temperatures. This was originally proposed by a chemist named Arrhenius about a century ago. Global average temperatures have risen by a small, but measurable amount in the past 100 years, apparently in large part because of the higher level of atmospheric CO2. Global average temperatures are expected to be on the order of 2-5C (3.6-9F) higher by the time CO2 doubles the pre-industrial concentration. The temperature rise will be small in the tropics but much greater at high latitudes.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:29   #1047
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Melbourne Florida
Boat: Columbia 24
Posts: 98
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

The rate of plant growth is directly related to the concentration of atmospheric CO2: The Direct and Indirect Effects of Increased Carbon Dioxide on Plant Growth
__________________
Eumelia is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:33   #1048
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Melbourne Florida
Boat: Columbia 24
Posts: 98
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Pretty interesting stuff, eh? Here's some more:


<h2>The Carbon Cycle and Earth's Climate </h2>



Carbon dioxide is an atmospheric constituent that plays several vital roles in the environment. It is a greenhouse gas that traps infrared radiation heat in the atmosphere. It plays a crucial role in the weathering of rocks. It is the carbon source for plants. It is stored in biomass, organic matter in sediments, and in carbonate rocks like limestone.

The Carbon Cycle
The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related volcanic arcs. Much of the CO2 released at subduction zones is derived from the metamorphism of carbonate rocks subducting with the ocean crust. Much of the overall outgassing CO2, expecially as midocean ridges and hotpot volcanoes, was stored in the mantle when the Earth formed. Some of the outgassed carbon remains as CO2 in the atmosphere, some is dissolved in the oceans, some carbon is held as biomass in living or dead and decaying organisms, and some is bound in carbonate rocks. Carbon is removed into long term storage by burial of sedimentary strata, especially coal and black shales that store organic carbon from undecayed biomass and carbonate rocks like limestone (calcium carbonate).


Photosynthesis
Plants and photosynthetic algae and bacteria use energy from sunlight to combine carbon dioxide (C02) from the atmosphere with water (H2O) to form carbohydrates. These carbohydrates store energy. Oxygen (O2) is a byproduct that is released into the atmosphere. This process is known as photosynthesis.
carbon dioxide + water + sunlight -> carbohydrate + oxygen CO2 + H2O + sunlight -> CH2O + O2

Respiration
Plants (and photosynthetic algae and bacteria) then use some of the stored carbohydrates as an energy source to carry out their life functions. Some of the carbohydrates remain as biomass (the bulk of the plant, etc.). Consumers such as animals, fungi, and bacteria get their energy from this excess biomass either while living or dead and decaying. Oxygen from the atmosphere is combined with carbohydrates to liberate the stored energy. Water and carbon dioxide are byproducts.
oxygen + carbohydrate -> energy + water + carbohydrate O2 + CH2O -> energy + H2O + CO2
Notice that photosynthesis and respiration are essentially the opposite of one another. Photosynthesis removes CO2 from the atmosphere and replaces it with O2. Respiration takes O2 from the atmosphere and replaces it with CO2. However, these processes are not in balance. Not all organic matter is oxidized. Some is buried in sedimentary rocks. The result is that over geologic time, there has been more oxygen put into the atmosphere and carbon dioxide removed by photosynthesis than the reverse.

Weathering
Carbon dioxide and the other atmospheric gases dissolve in surface waters. Dissolved gases are in equilibrium with the gas in the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide reacts with water in solution to form the weak acid, carbonic acid. Carbonic acid disassociates into hydrogen ions and bicarbonate ions. The hydrogen ions and water react with most common minerals (silicates and carbonates) altering the minerals. The products of weathering are predominantly clays (a group of silicate minerals) and soluble ions such as calcium, iron, sodium, and potassium. Bicarbonate ions also remain in solution; a remnant of the carbonic acid that was used to weather the rocks.


Carbonate Rocks
1. Carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere by dissolving in water and forming carbonic acid
CO2 + H2O -> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) 2. Carbonic acid is used to weather rocks, yielding bicarbonate ions, other ions, and clays
H2CO3 + H2O + silicate minerals -> HCO3- + cations (Ca++, Fe++, Na+, etc.) + clays 3. Calcium carbonate is precipitated from calcium and bicarbonate ions in seawater by marine organisms like coral
Ca++ + 2HCO3- -> CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O the carbon is now stored on the seafloor in layers of limestone Metamorphism of Carbonates
Some of this carbon is returned to the atmosphere via metamorphism of limestone at depth in subduction zones or in orogenic belts
CaCO3 + SiO2 -> CO2 + CaSiO3 followed by outgassing at the volcanic arc.

The Greenhouse Effect
Most of the sun's energy that falls on the Earth's surface is in the visible light portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is in large part because the Earth's atmosphere is transparent to these wavelengths (we all know that with a functioning ozone layer, the higher frequencies like ultraviolet are mostly screened out). Part of the sunlight is reflected back into space, depending on the albedo or reflectivity of the surface. Part of the sunlight is changed into infrared (lower frequency than visible light). While the dominant gases of the atmosphere (nitrogen and oxygen) are transparent to infrared, the so-called greenhouse gasses, primarily water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide, and methane (CH4), absorb the infrared radiation. They collect this heat energy and hold it in the atmosphere. While we worry about possible global warming from the additional CO2 we put into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels, if there was no CO2 in the atmosphere the global climate would be significantly cooler.


The Climate Buffer
Because of the role of CO2 in climate, feedbacks in the carbon cycle act to maintain global temperatures within certain bounds so that the climate never gets too hot or too cold to support life on Earth. The process is a large-scale example of LeChatelier's Principle. This chemical principle states that if a reaction at equilibrium is perturbed by the addition or removal of a product or reactant, the reaction will adjust so as to attempt to bring that chemical species back to its original concentration. For example, as carbonic acid is removed from solution by weathering of rocks, the reaction will adjust by producing more carbonic acid. And since the dissolved CO2 is in equilibrium with atmospheric CO2, more CO2 is removed from the atmosphere to replace that removed from solution by weathering.

some examples:
If CO2 concentration increases in the atmosphere because of an increased rate of outgassing, global temperature will rise. Rising temperature and more dissolved CO2 will lead to increased weathering of crustal rocks as a result of faster reaction rates (temperature effect) and greater acidity. Enhanced weathering will use up the excess CO2 thereby cooling the climate.
If global temperature cools as a result of some astronomical forcing or tectonic/ocean circulation effect, the lower temperatures will result in lower rates of chemical weathering. Decreased weathering means less CO2 being drawn from the atmosphere by weathering reactions, leaving more CO2 in the atmosphere to increase temperatures.
If more rocks become available for rapid weathering as a result of mountain uplift the enhanced weathering will draw down atmospheric CO2 and decrease global temperatures. But the decreased temperatures will slow reaction rates, thereby using less CO2, thus allowing temperatures to moderate.
__________________
Eumelia is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:33   #1049
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumelia View Post
Just sayin'...I have no agenda here, just contributing to the dialogue. Check it out here:

Carbon Cycle and the Earth's Climate


The Carbon Cycle. The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related
Instead of a quote cut away of the context why not read throw?
"Photosynthesis and respiration in plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, etc. exchange carbon between the CO2 in the atmosphere and carbon compounds in organisms. But humans are now putting this natural carbon cycle out of balance. Because of the emission of CO2 long-stored in fossil fuels the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased from about 289 parts per million before the industrial revolution to over 360 parts per million and rising. Sometime during the 21st century the concentration of CO2 will be twice what it was before the industrial revolution.
With higher CO2 concentrations come expectations of a stronger greenhouse effect and therefore warmer global temperatures. This was originally proposed by a chemist named Arrhenius about a century ago. Global average temperatures have risen by a small, but measurable amount in the past 100 years, apparently in large part because of the higher level of atmospheric CO2. Global average temperatures are expected to be on the order of 2-5C (3.6-9F) higher by the time CO2 doubles the pre-industrial concentration. The temperature rise will be small in the tropics but much greater at high latitudes"
Just saying..


edit: you did !
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline  
Old 07-04-2015, 13:36   #1050
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumelia View Post
The rate of plant growth is directly related to the concentration of atmospheric CO2: The Direct and Indirect Effects of Increased Carbon Dioxide on Plant Growth
And then there is

Elevated Carbon Dioxide Levels Rob Crops Of Nutrients | Inside Science

and

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/13/5129.abstract
__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
arc, water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Experts: Global warming behind 2005 hurricanes CaptainK Atlantic & the Caribbean 0 25-04-2006 22:42
Scientists blame sun for global warming CaptainK Polar Regions 17 17-04-2006 11:25
Public service ads aim to raise awareness about global warming CaptainK Polar Regions 11 26-03-2006 13:52
Pacific islanders move to escape global warming CaptainK Pacific & South China Sea 36 17-01-2006 00:30
New source of global warming gas found: plants CaptainK Pacific & South China Sea 6 16-01-2006 00:02



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.