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Old 30-03-2015, 22:08   #646
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
You are well on your way to being called a Climate Racist...that's when you know you have really scored a good point.
Lol. I've been called far worst. And that's from my own loved ones.

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If the believers in MMGW were serious and believed their own hype...they would live off the grid in a carbon emissionless lifestyle without plastics and evil petroleum to keep them warm at night and cool during the day.
Eggs-actly. I sleep at night because I've made an effort to reduce my so-called carbon footprint and environment footprint in general, and have taught my kids the same. I honestly cannot comprehend how those so obsessed that the end is nigh aren't returning themselves voluntarily to the stone age. At least us heretics will die ignorant and with a clear conscience.
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Old 30-03-2015, 22:28   #647
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Now, that's an interesting conclusion.
What's it based on?
The Permian extinction. Sea temperature reached 40C. It took 5 million years to recover. In the meantime the land was barren and 90% of species went extinct. Trees could no longer grow in tropical areas which had a lot of rain.

This history is feared to repeat because the coal deposits were produced BEFORE this event in the carboniferous era, and also because of many inter-connected feedback loops.

For example, more temperature means more clouds which results in more water vapor which traps more heat. More heat also causes more lightning which starts fires. Too much heat means rain forests cannot grow at sea level in the high tropics. More heat means methane is released. More heat melts ice which reflects solar radiation etc...

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Sorry I don't watch any video's, as the cost in bandwidth is too high.

You know I'm not saying climate does not change. It changes all the time, both short term and really long term, sometimes up and some times down. Yes there is a component to "Climate change that is driven by CO2. All the difference between warmest and "deniers" is the extent of warming that is anthropomorphic and which parts of warming is not.
Maybe we can agree on Something.

The point of the thread isn't really what is causing changes, but that changes occurring will open new waterways. As for living on a boat, this fact alone is not an immediate concern.

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Myself, I've done about all I can to conserve since the 70's. No I'm not worried about global warming. That, overfishing and population growth will self correct, sometime in the future. It will not be pretty when it does.
I don't really think it's possible besides suicide, but maybe as you suggest if everyone had your attitude we wouldn't face such extremes.
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Old 30-03-2015, 23:36   #648
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
You are well on your way to being called a Climate Racist...that's when you know you have really scored a good point.

If the believers in MMGW were serious and believed their own hype...they would live off the grid in a carbon emissionless lifestyle without plastics and evil petroleum to keep them warm at night and cool during the day.
I think your another one that get's 'environmentalism' confused with climate concerns. Whilst it's true that the two are NOT mutually exclusive, it does not at all stand to reason that those who believe in MMGW are also adamant environmentalists.
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Old 31-03-2015, 01:45   #649
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Oops sorry, you're referring to the Maldives. Ok, Google Fu at the ready:

Why the Maldives aren't sinking - Spectator Blogs

Ok fellas, start tearing one Nils-Axel Mörner's credibility apart.
Watched a TV clip of Maldives under threat of rising sea levels. They used a resort that had been built out of lagoon on a coral cay that had slipped into the sea as an example of why they wanted payments to cover damage and to possibly migrate to Australia.

Bit like the Gold Coast wondering why they get coastal erosion every time they get coastal storms. Well if you build on frontal dunes expect it.

Like coral cays they build up and wash away in storms. Building on frontal dumes and coral cays expect erosion. Its natural not climate change.
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Old 31-03-2015, 02:51   #650
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Watched a TV clip of Maldives under threat of rising sea levels. They used a resort that had been built out of lagoon on a coral cay that had slipped into the sea as an example of why they wanted payments to cover damage and to possibly migrate to Australia.

Bit like the Gold Coast wondering why they get coastal erosion every time they get coastal storms. Well if you build on frontal dunes expect it.

Like coral cays they build up and wash away in storms. Building on frontal dumes and coral cays expect erosion. Its natural not climate change.
Exactly. Out in the coral sea and no doubt elsewhere there is a bunch of low lying coral atolls and they're not disappearing and if they do, well welcome to the cycle of nature as applied to terra-forming.

List of new islands: List of new islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of lost lands: Lost lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 31-03-2015, 03:33   #651
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Well, I'd hardly call it "massive". One swallow doesn't make a spring. And I'll hedge a bet that the glaciers observed weren't picked at random . If ALL other glaciers were experiencing "massive" retreats then I would concede that this could quite possibly be a concerning event.
Reefmagnet, I've watched this film again, just to make sure I didn't miss things and check what you posted. Having watched it again I 'must' conclude that you deliberately misrepresented what was in the film. Which is not very encouraging around your integrity. It leads me to suspect that you really have no interest in anything called 'evidence' to inform you.

With the following comment from YOU in mind, " if all other glaciers were experiencing 'massive' retreats then I would concede that this could quite possibly be concerning event", I'll point out a few facts from the film.

The normal expectation of the Solheim glacier would be to expect a little advance in summer and a little retreat in winter. That's normal. To be expected. Keep in mind that glaciologists believe these things to be tens of thousands of years old, possibly as much as 100 thousand years old. And yet between 1984 to 2009 it retreated 11 miles, and thinned in height equal to the Empire State Building. During the years of the study, just three years between 2006-2009 it both deflated and retreated at never before observed rates.

Columbia glacier in Alaska, in just 3 years it retreated 2 1/2 miles.

The Yuken in Canada has some 1400 glaciers in 1958, (this is where you pointed out in the film that some were growing Reefmagnet) four (4 Reefmagnet) got bigger, 3 disappeared completely and all the rest got much smaller. Remember, these are ancient glaciers disappearing in less than our lifetimes.

At the end of the film they showed the film of one I didn't quite grab, but it was the one where they pointed out that from 1902 to 2001 (100years), it retreated 8 miles, but from just 2000 to 2010 (10 years) it retreated 9 miles. That means Reefmagnet, it receded more in just ten years than it previously did in 100 years. Is that "massive" enough for you?

Another interesting thing I thought during the film was that they pointed out regarding ice coring evidence, that the evidence suggests that for the past 800 000 years co2 raised and lowered consistent with temperatures. Throughout the 800 000 years the co2 remained around 280p/m, but now, in our decade temperature has remained consistent but co2 has gone through the roof and is currently 390p/m and still rising. It's expected to reach 500p/m. That was alarming to me.

I'm not that knowledgable about a lot of this stuff. To me I rely on experts who have the credentials, experience and the integrity. And over the past ten years particularly that I've been paying attention I've been swayed by such a huge sway of credible science to believe their is something very serious going on. The other side of things that sway me is listening to some of the skeptics and so called scientists who dispute it. Almost entirely I find either their credentials are ***** or they have some other incentive that comes out. And you can tell with their science because like yours, they just sound rediculous and almost comical. Like creationists, which I was for my younger years. They claim all sorts of things, make claims to all the scientists that support them, but if you really start looking at the 'evidence' their creationist evidence is comical.

If anyone is 'open minded' on this subject around melting glaciers, I'd encourage you to watch Chacing Ice. It's a photographic documentary. So if your like me and get board with all the graphs and figures, just look at the pictures. There really an illumination.
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Old 31-03-2015, 03:37   #652
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post


Eggs-actly. I sleep at night because I've made an effort to reduce my so-called carbon footprint and environment footprint in general, and have taught my kids the same. I honestly cannot comprehend how those so obsessed that the end is nigh aren't returning themselves voluntarily to the stone age. At least us heretics will die ignorant and with a clear conscience.
Why? Seriously, if you don't believe anything about climate change why bother?

And personally I've never heard of climatologists claiming the world is ending. Never heard someone suggest that.

And your claiming this with 'honesty'? I think you have a serious integrity issue.
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Old 31-03-2015, 04:53   #653
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Why? Seriously, if you don't believe anything about climate change why bother?

And personally I've never heard of climatologists claiming the world is ending. Never heard someone suggest that.

And your claiming this with 'honesty'? I think you have a serious integrity issue.
You're not going to make me do an "islands are sinking" analysis again, are you?
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:10   #654
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Why? Seriously, if you don't believe anything about climate change why bother?

And personally I've never heard of climatologists claiming the world is ending. Never heard someone suggest that.

And your claiming this with 'honesty'? I think you have a serious integrity issue.
Just to make it clear. From an earlier post today:

Aside from that I'm just the voice of the man in the street skeptic NOT on climate change per se, but the motivations and, as I've written before and will write yet again, the exaggerated information and fear mongering behind it.



Here's an interesting unrelated fact. I tried to watch "Chasing Ice", and for that matter "An Inconvenient Truth" on Youtube. Guess what? Not available.

It would appear saving the world is only a noble pursuit and "the right thing to do" if there's a dollar in it.

Just to silence the critics that "deniers" are all non scientific nutters, send yourself to sleep tonight with this guy:

This guy is such a geek and so dry in his presentation I couldn't make it past 15 minutes. But one thing is evident. He knows his stuff.

And this guy came to my attention because he sems to be constantly discredited. He seems to be a meteorologist so I figure he might have some idea what he is talking about:

If you take the time to watch any of this stuff or follow any of the links I post (which highly suspect you don't) you will see that none of the "deniers" deny global change or even global warming or even if there is a man made component.
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:16   #655
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Reefmagnet, I've watched this film again, just to make sure I didn't miss things and check what you posted. Having watched it again I 'must' conclude that you deliberately misrepresented what was in the film. Which is not very encouraging around your integrity. It leads me to suspect that you really have no interest in anything called 'evidence' to inform you.

With the following comment from YOU in mind, " if all other glaciers were experiencing 'massive' retreats then I would concede that this could quite possibly be concerning event", I'll point out a few facts from the film.

The normal expectation of the Solheim glacier would be to expiect a little advance in summer and a little retreat in winter. That's normal. To be expected. Keep in mind that glaciologists believe these things to be tens of thousands of years old, possibly as much as 100 thousand years old. And yet between 1984 to 2009 it retreated 11 miles, and thinned in height equal to the Empire State Building. During the years of the study, just three years between 2006-2009 it both deflated and retreated at never before observed rates.

Columbia glacier in Alaska, in just 3 years it retreated 2 1/2 miles.

The Yuken in Canada has some 1400 glaciers in 1958, (this is where you pointed out in the film that some were growing Reefmagnet) four (4 Reefmagnet) got bigger, 3 disappeared completely and all the rest got much smaller. Remember, these are ancient glaciers disappearing in less than our lifetimes.

At the end of the film they showed the film of one I didn't quite grab, but it was the one where they pointed out that from 1902 to 2001 (100years), it retreated 8 miles, but from just 2000 to 2010 (10 years) it retreated 9 miles. That means Reefmagnet, it receded more in just ten years than it previously did in 100 years. Is that "massive" enough for you?

Another interesting thing I thought during the film was that they pointed out regarding ice coring evidence, that the evidence suggests that for the past 800 000 years co2 raised and lowered consistent with temperatures. Throughout the 800 000 years the co2 remained around 280p/m, but now, in our decade temperature has remained consistent but co2 has gone through the roof and is currently 390p/m and still rising. It's expected to reach 500p/m. That was alarming to me.

I'm not that knowledgable about a lot of this stuff. To me I rely on experts who have the credentials, experience and the integrity. And over the past ten years particularly that I've been paying attention I've been swayed by such a huge sway of credible science to believe their is something very serious going on. The other side of things that sway me is listening to some of the skeptics and so called scientists who dispute it. Almost entirely I find either their credentials are ***** or they have some other incentive that comes out. And you can tell with their science because like yours, they just sound rediculous and almost comical. Like creationists, which I was for my younger years. They claim all sorts of things, make claims to all the scientists that support them, but if you really start looking at the 'evidence' their creationist evidence is comical.

If anyone is 'open minded' on this subject around melting glaciers, I'd encourage you to watch Chacing Ice. It's a photographic documentary. So if your like me and get board with all the graphs and figures, just look at the pictures. There really an illumination.
Focus Reefmagnet, focus. You havnt responded to any of this. I watched it again after you claimed to have watched it. You made some claims which I responded to and checked. So, what's your response?
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:23   #656
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Just to make it clear. From an earlier post today:

Aside from that I'm just the voice of the man in the street skeptic NOT on climate change per se, but the motivations and, as I've written before and will write yet again, the exaggerated information and fear mongering behind it.



Here's an interesting unrelated fact. I tried to watch "Chasing Ice", and for that matter "An Inconvenient Truth" on Youtube. Guess what? Not available.

It would appear saving the world is only a noble pursuit and "the right thing to do" if there's a dollar in it.

Just to silence the critics that "deniers" are all non scientific nutters, send yourself to sleep tonight with this guy:

This guy is such a geek and so dry in his presentation I couldn't make it past 15 minutes. But one thing is evident. He knows his stuff.

And this guy came to my attention because he sems to be constantly discredited. He seems to be a meteorologist so I figure he might have some idea what he is talking about:

If you take the time to watch any of this stuff or follow any of the links I post (which highly suspect you don't) you will see that none of the "deniers" deny global change or even global warming or even if there is a man made component.
Not off to a good start, but I'll have a look.

Murry Lewis Salby is an atmospheric scientist who focused on upper atmospheric wave propagation for most of his early career, and who more recently has argued against aspects of the scientific consensus that human activity contributes to climate change.[1]

From the mid 1980s, Salby conducted research out of University of Colorado Boulder. In 2005, the National Science Foundation opened an investigation into Salby's federal funding arrangements and found that he had displayed "a pattern of deception [and] a lack of integrity" in his handling of federal grant money.[2] He resigned his position in Colorado in 2008 and became professor of climate risk at Macquarie University in Macquarie Park, New South Wales. In 2013 he was dismissed by the university on grounds of refusal to teach and misuse of university resources.[3]
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:27   #657
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post


Eggs-actly. I sleep at night because I've made an effort to reduce my so-called carbon footprint and environment footprint in general, and have taught my kids the same. I honestly cannot comprehend how those so obsessed that the end is nigh aren't returning themselves voluntarily to the stone age. At least us heretics will die ignorant and with a clear conscience.
I applaud you for making an effort to be environmentally friendly, but have never seen a good reason to be concerned about reducing your carbon footprint. Why? They are two entirely different things. All those CO2 loving plants out there and you're attempting to starve them of what they need to flourish and you're suggesting it's a good thing?! Maybe you're not being as environmentally friendly as you think you are?

I honestly can say that I too sleep very well at night, and when I think about where I'd like to go on vacation, the carbon emissions from the jet that will take me there aren't even a consideration, and by the looks of the full airplane cabins, LOTS of other people on BOTH sides of this AGW debate share my CO2 indifference, at least in practice. If only the climate alarmists really believed their own hyperbole and acted on their "convictions," I might be able to stretch out a little on a long flight! But that's not happening.

The most graphic example of this mindset happened when I was waiting in line to takeoff from JFK and one of the UN conferences on global warming ended. Beside where we were on taxiway C, was a remote parking (just a ramp with no terminal) area with several jets capable of carrying a few hundred people each just sitting there with not much going on around them. Suddenly convoys of full sized SUV's approached, and a very small handful of people got out of the SUV's and got on the planes and they immediately were starting engines in preparation for departure as we moved forward in line. These were obviously representatives from all over the world who were attending the UN conference and they all seemed to have brought their own private Boeing or Airbus to the party, and then traveled the 10 miles or so from JFK to the UN building in the biggest, most gas guzzling vehicles on the market today. As long as that's going on, you can't blame people for seeing this as more of a political money grab than a sincere concern.

That said, though I think they have been misled about the science and this has resulted in them forming misguided opinions about AGW, I have all the respect in the world for those AGW alarmists who have made real sacrifices and have actually taken steps to reduce their own carbon footprints. Our country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion and AGW alarmists should not be prevented from practicing theirs. But, along with every other religious group, they need to realize that they can be a lot more persuasive by acting out their religious convictions than by talking about them or trying to force other "non believers" to adopt them.
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:33   #658
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Just to make it clear. From an earlier post today:

Aside from that I'm just the voice of the man in the street skeptic NOT on climate change per se, but the motivations and, as I've written before and will write yet again, the exaggerated information and fear mongering behind it.



Here's an interesting unrelated fact. I tried to watch "Chasing Ice", and for that matter "An Inconvenient Truth" on Youtube. Guess what? Not available.

It would appear saving the world is only a noble pursuit and "thue right thing to do" if there's a dollar in it.

Just to silence the critics that "deniers" are all non scientific nutters, send yourself to sleep tonight with this guy:

This guy is such a geek and so dry in his presentation I couldn't make it past 15 minutes. But one thing is evident. He knows his stuff.

And this guy came to my attention because he sems to be constantly discredited. He seems to be a meteorologist so I figure he might have some idea what he is talking about:

If you take the time to watch any of this stuff or follow any of the links I post (which highly suspect you don't) you will see that none of the "deniers" deny global change or even global warming or even if there is a man made component.
Well, 15 minutes in and even the video it self points out how discredited he is.

You see that's where we differ, I will believe people with credibility, and expertise on the subject, and yet you support this guy because in your words he's constantly discredited. Now, who should we all be listening too? Highly recognised and credible persons with expertise in their fields or as you put it, people like this who go from university to university getting discredited from one to the next. Who's more credible?
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Old 31-03-2015, 05:50   #659
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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I applaud you for making an effort to be environmentally friendly, but have never seen a good reason to be concerned about reducing your carbon footprint. Why? They are two entirely different things. All those CO2 loving plants out there and you're attempting to starve them of what they need to flourish and you're suggesting it's a good thing?! Maybe you're not being as environmentally friendly as you think you are?

I honestly can say that I too sleep very well at night, and when I think about where I'd like to go on vacation, the carbon emissions from the jet that will take me there aren't even a consideration, and by the looks of the full airplane cabins, LOTS of other people on BOTH sides of this AGW debate share my CO2 indifference, at least in practice. If only the climate alarmists really believed their own hyperbole and acted on their "convictions," I might be able to stretch out a little on a long flight! But that's not happening.

The most graphic example of this mindset happened when I was waiting in line to takeoff from JFK and one of the UN conferences on global warming ended. Beside where we were on taxiway C, was a remote parking (just a ramp with no terminal) area with several jets capable of carrying a few hundred people each just sitting there with not much going on around them. Suddenly convoys of full sized SUV's approached, and a very small handful of people got out of the SUV's and got on the planes and they immediately were starting engines in preparation for departure as we moved forward in line. These were obviously representatives from all over the world who were attending the UN conference and they all seemed to have brought their own private Boeing or Airbus to the party, and then traveled the 10 miles or so from JFK to the UN building in the biggest, most gas guzzling vehicles on the market today. As long as that's going on, you can't blame people for seeing this as more of a political money grab than a sincere concern.

That said, though I think they have been misled about the science and this has resulted in them forming misguided opinions about AGW, I have all the respect in the world for those AGW alarmists who have made real sacrifices and have actually taken steps to reduce their own carbon footprints. Our country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion and AGW alarmists should not be prevented from practicing theirs. But, along with every other religious group, they need to realize that they can be a lot more persuasive by acting out their religious convictions than by talking about them or trying to force other "non believers" to adopt them.
This is a little illogical to me. If it was a UN world conference on climate concerns then they were politicians! Representatives of different countries. Most of them probably just representing their various governments. Expecting politicians to save money let alone to act in anyway environmentally friendly is a big ask.

But, I've never got this strange accusation that you can't be a moderate, be sensible, be non wasteful without being an 'extremist'. And those of you, like Reefmagnet who bring up the notion of 'if your an environmentalist you should be voluntarily living in the stone age' is just nonsense.

I recall someone else on another thread said if I'm 'non nuclear power stations' then it's logical that I should be anti All nuclear, such as nuclear medicine. Well, that is a non sensible suggestion to me. Just because I'm anti nuclear weapons or power does not even remotely lead to a conclusion one should be anti nuclear medicine or nuclear something else.

Nor does being anti destroying the Amazon suggest i should be anti 'paper', or anti raping and pillaging the worlds oceans, therefore I should be anti fishing with a rod. It's just a nonsense argument.
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Old 31-03-2015, 06:12   #660
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Re: Global Warming Opens Up Antarctic Waterways

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This is a little illogical to me. If it was a UN world conference on climate concerns then they were politicians! Representatives of different countries. Most of them probably just representing their various governments. Expecting politicians to save money let alone to act in anyway environmentally friendly is a big ask.

But, I've never got this strange accusation that you can't be a moderate, be sensible, be non wasteful without being an 'extremist'. And those of you, like Reefmagnet who bring up the notion of 'if your an environmentalist you should be voluntarily living in the stone age' is just nonsense.

I recall someone else on another thread said if I'm 'non nuclear power stations' then it's logical that I should be anti All nuclear, such as nuclear medicine. Well, that is a non sensible suggestion to me. Just because I'm anti nuclear weapons or power does not even remotely lead to a conclusion one should be anti nuclear medicine or nuclear something else.

Nor does being anti destroying the Amazon suggest i should be anti 'paper', or anti raping and pillaging the worlds oceans, therefore I should be anti fishing with a rod. It's just a nonsense argument.
I think you are right they were mostly politicians or high level bureaucrats from the third world, there to make their case for a handout financed largely by US taxpayers. But when we read about this meeting in the AGW alarmist press, it is depicted that they were all top level scientists, all in nearly unanimous agreement about how dangerous AGW is and if we don't "act" immediately, the earth will surely suffer dire consequences.

I've never made the illogical argument that you mention. I think it's perfectly fine for you or anyone else to be moderate, sensible, and non wasteful. I aspire to all those same things as well, so I'm not sure where you get raping the Amazon or pillaging, etc. maybe trying to change the subject or create a straw man to argue against? I don't think you need to live in the stone age and I think you are very well aware that's a very large exaggeration on your part, but I do think that it makes sense for people who claim to be very concerned about AGW to live their life so as to not contribute to CO2 generation any more than necessary. That's why I said I respect those who do live a lifestyle that reflects what they say they believe even though I disagree with their beliefs. But when we have people becoming wealthy from scaremongering about AGW, while simultaneously choosing to live a lifestyle that includes an absolute mammoth sized carbon footprint, I think it's fair to point out the obvious hypocrisy. It's sort of like the the evangelical preacher who gets caught having affairs with 3 of his parishioners wives. Once that comes out, no matter what he says or how eloquently he says it, you can't help but be a little skeptical about his sincerity.
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