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Old 03-09-2012, 09:56   #16
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Re: First sail boat through the McClure Straits

Ooooo.... sensitive topic!!! The mods will be watching this one for the poo in the spinner.

Rather than running over the same old, same old stuff, how about a few different questions, which all assume, in this case, HYPOTHETICAL global warming? Don't argue about whether it is true, or not.

Which countries will benefit from a temperature increase?
Which countries will suffer from the same?
For the cruisers out there, will we one day be able to dive coral reefs off Sydney, and sail around the northern sections of Canada and Asia?
If so, is that good or bad?
Cyclones in Sydney and Tokyo are ok?
Is the surface area of the ice in Antarctica and elsewhere or the volume of ice more important when considering future sea level changes?
What is generally told to us, the poor dumb reader?

Is it better to have global warming or global cooling for the entire planet as a whole?

Would you prefer to live on boat or on land, no matter which is occurring?
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:19   #17
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

I'm impressed with their sailing adventure. I'm tired of hearing the worried multitudes whining about the global warming, cooling, climate change etc. The average volcano spews more CO2 and heated gas in just a day or two than all of the industrialized nations combined put out in a year.

You wanna worry about nothing... Keep your unjustified worries to yourselves. Meanwhile, the Ferrari (12 cylinders & without catalitic converters) has just about finished warming up.... gotta get to work.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:50   #18
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

Let ss look at facts



This graph shows CO2 levels over the past 400000 years. Notice that there appears to a be natural cycle as ir rises and falls, much like the cycle in your home thermostat. This is called a negative feedback loop. In this natural cycle levels did not exceed 290 ppm. However, with the industrial revolution based on the the use of stored CO2 in fossil fuels, the levels have jumped and now exceed 400 ppm. (400 PPM: Carbon Dioxide Levels Cross a Sobering New Threshold | WRI Insights)

In the past CO2 was an amplifier of warming. It is now a trigger. Water vapour is currently a significant amplifier.

We cannot control volcanoes and other natural phenomenon but we stop fouling our own nest.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:24   #19
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

For anyone interested, I've worked some of my thoughts into a blog post reflective of the fact that I'm a Canadian and am outfitting an ostensibly high-latitude-capable steel cutter:

The world encompassed: Tracing one warm line

There's a lot of static on the issue of the causes of climate change, but the fact that these guys got through (and they are in no sense the first, although maybe the first in such a modest production boat) argues that change is happening...and quickly.
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Old 03-09-2012, 14:10   #20
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

I'm absolutely serious.... so what's wrong with global warming or climate change?? What can we all do to help speed up the process??

I love warm weather, lower heating bills, and look forward to making the same northern passage someday.
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Old 03-09-2012, 16:33   #21
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

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I'm absolutely serious.... so what's wrong with global warming or climate change?? What can we all do to help speed up the process??

I love warm weather, lower heating bills, and look forward to making the same northern passage someday.

I think people who welcome global warming need to get out more.
I'm not sure how they can have failed to notice that hottest countries are poorest countries.

The hottest states in warm countries are the poorest states.

(California is a notable exception, but it's arguably not situated in a warm country, nor would it necessarily survive as a rich state, if it weren't for air con, which is part of the problem, and certainly makes a mockery of your 'lower heating bills'. Even places like Chicago will become death traps when a heatwave is the norm, rather than a rare exception)

Large chunks of Australia and Spain are already borderline for habitability, with temperatures reaching over 50 deg C (122 F) in recent years.
Africa and other equatorial low-lying regions have the capacity to generate refugees on a scale which makes present problems appear infinitesimal. Still, I guess people in the US are unaware of refugee problems. Mexico is a blessing to the US, when you put it in context with the problems elsewhere which are truly collossal.

Someone else talked about coral reefs at Sydney latitudes. You can forget coral reefs anywhere: the pH of the oceans is dropping and will increasingly do so, as a consequence of CO2 levels, made worse by the increased solubility of CO2 in the oceans as they warm. Calcium carbonate, the building material for coral and shell, is in turn soluble in the ocean as the pH drops. (Remember limestone building facings dissolving in acid rain, before the world took a grip on that problem?)

Coral (and shellfish shell formation) is unlikely to be a feature of our future.

The existing reefs and atolls, dead or alive, will in any case be of no further use for habititation, let alone theme parks for cruising sailors, because they'll be underwater.

Still, I guess this (and the displacement of the billions who live coastally) is a small price to pay for the ability to survey the far north in a plastic boat.

I personally don't see the attraction of the far north, when the ice and the wildlife are gone, but that's just me....
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Old 03-09-2012, 16:38   #22
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Kenomac, you are quite right. I am trying to get things set up to make an exploratory trip to the far north next season to get a feel for the area before getting too far in, has been a goal of mine for years, and the recent changes lesssen the risk of getting stuck there all winter if things go wrong.
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Old 03-09-2012, 16:58   #23
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

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....deal with whatever
nature throws at us and use it to our advantage. Less ice is opening new areas to sail for those of us who like to get off the beaten path. Rising sea levels are a non issue living on a boat...perhaps a relocated coastline will inspire more to live indepently as possible on boats.
Independently of what? The shore?

Just as well: any existing shore facilities will be abandoned. Who will pay to establish new ports, wharves, marinas, shipping channels. Who will be able to afford the wholesale resurveying of coastlines, and revise and republish charts?

Because there won't be any money left over after the more pressing issues of relocating coastal cities. I don't think people realise how many cities are only a few metres above present day sea level. How many nations could currently cope with the expense of relocating just one city, let alone dozens or hundreds?

Furthermore, how do you earn a living "indepently as possible on boats" under the new, radically changed realities? The cost of food is a concern when the fertile deltas are submerged and farm land has to be coopted for relocation of cities. Let alone the cost of repairs.

People "living independently on boats" will add nothing to the survival of others, (unless they take up the commercial pillage of what little sealife remains) and will accordingly derive no societal support.

You talk of dealing with what nature throws at us. I think you have that exactly backwards.

Surely we need to deal with what we throw at nature: it's bigger and uglier than we.
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Old 03-09-2012, 17:37   #24
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

"I think people who welcome global warming need to get out more.
I'm not sure how they can have failed to notice that hottest countries are poorest countries."

"The hottest states in warm countries are the poorest states." Andrew Troup


You are absolutely right Andrew.... Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai and The United Arab Emirates are some of the poorest countries.

Quit breathing my tailpipe fumes.
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Old 03-09-2012, 18:50   #25
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

I'm placing my money on global cooling, well for the next 30 years at least, sunspots going, going.. gone. Dalton or maunder minimum we are heading for.
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Old 03-09-2012, 19:36   #26
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

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".... hottest countries are poorest countries."

Andrew Troup


You are absolutely right Andrew.... Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai and The United Arab Emirates are some of the poorest countries.
Oil rich ... but dirt poor. Does a golden goose make a peasant wealthy?

The exceptions to any generalisation are illuminating and in some cases strengthen the case argued for using the generalisation, especially when there is a strong link between the exceptional cases.

You could have added Australia: a hot country, which is NOT oil rich, but up until recently was enjoying untold wealth extracted from the ground.
Western Australia is a notable exception to my second rule.
Ask them in 50 years how good an idea it was to fiddle while the climate burned.

Such exceptions improve the rule. "Wealth" created by extractive industries is not always a blessing even in the short term; in the long term it is always a curse.

In a warmed-up future world, when fossil fuel extraction is seen in historical context: as a massive overdraft, largely squandered on non-durables, secured against two essential attributes which hitherto made the planet suited for human survival, I ask two questions:

Will you be pleased to emigrate to one of the countries you list, the elite 'formerly oil-rich' nations, where the only surviving air-con units flap, rusting, while suffocating sandstorms provide the only respite from the merciless heat ?

And: Will you happily front up to be judged by those to whom "I'm all right, Jack" does not seem a compelling reason to argue against doing anything while there was (arguably) still time?


I'll stop breathing your tailpipe fumes when you stop emitting them. Unfortunately, until you do, there's nothing else to breathe.
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Old 03-09-2012, 19:55   #27
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

Climate change deniers may not understand much about science and will look for any criticism so that they don't have to urge action by our government that would cost them money.

For the latest input into the climate science see the results of the very skeptical Richard Muller at: Home|Berkeley Earth

This group, that has been skeptical of all the professional studies, finally concludes that 1. the Earth IS warming rapidly and 2. The cause is man made CO2.
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:05   #28
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

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Climate change deniers may not understand much about science and will look for any criticism so that they don't have to urge action by our government that would cost them money.

For the latest input into the climate science see the results of the very skeptical Richard Muller at: Home|Berkeley Earth

This group, that has been skeptical of all the professional studies, finally concludes that 1. the Earth IS warming rapidly and 2. The cause is man made CO2.
And half of the funding money came from the oil industry - the Koch Brothers.
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:07   #29
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits



Just in case anyone is wondering, yes, we moderators are watching this thread. So far, so good. Let's try and keep it that way... good discussion is great. If it degrades, you know what happens.
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:45   #30
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Re: First Sail Boat Through the McClure Straits

Ok, so put your hand up all you guys on both sides of the debate that sold your cars, disconnected you house from the electricity grid, threw away your boat motors and are posting here using a computer operating purely on green energy?
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