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Old 07-04-2015, 20:46   #61
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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If you are going to go to all of the trouble to do a NW Passage I'd suggest it be done so it counts... I think they call it cheating when you miss the start or finish line... kind of like climbing to high camp but not summiting Mt. Everest and saying you climbed Everest... kind of.... ouch!

http://www.rccpf.org.uk/images/websi...-2014-X-5C.pdf

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GG, You have confused me with someone who cares about public recognition. I have no desire to be added to a list or be included in some sort of "club". If one day I were to do "part" of the passage I promise to just call it a nice long boat ride.

The notion that my proposed strategy entails "all the trouble" is inaccurate as my idea (assuming that it is sound) would likely eliminate more than half the trouble.

Cheers,

Steve
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Old 07-04-2015, 21:18   #62
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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GG, You have confused me with someone who cares about public recognition. I have no desire to be added to a list or be included in some sort of "club".
Certainly the days of anyone caring who does the NW passage are long past. Doing it now to be added to a list is kind of silly. You are for sure on the smart side of the curve.
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Old 07-04-2015, 22:35   #63
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

I dare say that after your 700 plus posts and looking at Panope's detailed images that as a pilot you would in fact want to achieve an official Northwest Passage by starting and finishing at the official demarcations. Nice steel vessel and glad to see the foam insulation.

I could be wrong but I'd bet you are ex-military and do things by the book.

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 07-04-2015, 22:41   #64
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Certainly the days of anyone caring who does the NW passage are long past. Doing it now to be added to a list is kind of silly. You are for sure on the smart side of the curve.
Boy did you miss the mark by a mile... it has nothing to do with being on a list but rather having achieved a personal best challenge...

Some people just see the ocean... others hear the surf... still others wonder what is over the horizon... and some build a boat and go see for themselves.

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 08-04-2015, 00:45   #65
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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I dare say that after your 700 plus posts and looking at Panope's detailed images that as a pilot you would in fact want to achieve an official Northwest Passage by starting and finishing at the official demarcations. Nice steel vessel and glad to see the foam insulation.

I could be wrong but I'd bet you are ex-military and do things by the book.

See you outdoors... on the water!
Would I like to do the whole enchilada? Sure, but not because of some arbitrary measure. I would also like to go to the moon but that is beyond my means. I conceived the half trip/road trip because it is something that I might actually be able to achieve (doable in months, not years). That, and it would give me a reason to build a new, smaller, trailerable boat......

Panope is made of aluminum. A steel Saugeen Witch would be fine but I would not have been able to add the pilot house due to poorer stability.

Never in military. All that "by the book" stuff would have bored me to death.

Any more "bets" about me? I see an opportunity to make some easy money!

Cheers,

Steve
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:23   #66
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

As long as a fibreglass boat has been built to A1 standards as an ocean boat, then it should do as well as a steel boat in ice.

Bob Shepton sailed into ice off Greenland in 1978, 2000 & 2001 in a Westerly Discus (33ft). He sailed as far as 78 degrees 32' North before freezing seas forced them back (somewhat further north than the NWP...)

I'm sure my old W35 could do it, I'm not sure I could.
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:54   #67
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Originally Posted by pillum View Post
As long as a fibreglass boat has been built to A1 standards as an ocean boat, then it should do as well as a steel boat in ice.

Bob Shepton sailed into ice off Greenland in 1978, 2000 & 2001 in a Westerly Discus (33ft). He sailed as far as 78 degrees 32' North before freezing seas forced them back (somewhat further north than the NWP...)

I'm sure my old W35 could do it, I'm not sure I could.
Yep, 'Westerlys Rule OK ?!?!'

I believe a lot of people 'over think' this stuff

Unless you plan to go "the Full Mani' ( see below) http://personal.inet.fi/yritys/meriv...rti.jais.2.jpg
Merivuokko - Two Finnish men try to sail to the Antarctic Circle
or overwinter anything with in reason will do the job.... if 'well prepared'

Some drink all the cool aid.. a classic example in the south is that you 'hang your mutton in the rigging'... oh ok, but not in TdF in January with day temps in the mid teens (*C)...
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Old 08-04-2015, 05:56   #68
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

I scone the concept that many times the boat is tougher than the man.

A few years ago I tried to go to Greenland. I got to Southern Labrador, into the Lab current. At that point I could easily have made it to Greenland and warmer climes. What I doubted was my ability to make it BACK along Baffin Island and Labrador.

Now if I had another with me for crew it would have been different. It was too much of a reach for me solo. No Mat Rutherford here.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:44   #69
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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I scone the concept that many times the boat is tougher than the man.

A few years ago I tried to go to Greenland. I got to Southern Labrador, into the Lab current. At that point I could easily have made it to Greenland and warmer climes. What I doubted was my ability to make it BACK along Baffin Island and Labrador.

Now if I had another with me for crew it would have been different. It was too much of a reach for me solo. No Mat Rutherford here.

Hpeer, thanks for sharing. Can you elaborate why you felt the that the return leg along Baffin Island and Labrador would have been more challenging?

I notice that this would have been in a favorable (albiet colder) current.

Steve

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Old 08-04-2015, 09:35   #70
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

A few reasons, inter-related
1. The cold, it wore me down with no way to stand off watch in ice.

2. The Baffin and Labradore coasts are only scantly charted. There are safe passages, and also areas simply marked "reported hazards." So yu need to do some close coastal sailing (not good for single handing) or go off shore.

3. Watching the grounded bergs break up and discharge ice fields with bergy bits and growlers that float off. Damn hard to see on radar. Again making it hard for a single hander.

I could have elected an off shore route back, but it's a long run and I talked to a very experienced German single hander who got the stuffing kicked out of him doing just that the year before. He ended up laying to a Jordan series drogue for most of a week. He made it into St Anthony's, the Lewisporte and then flew home to recouperated for the sail back to Germany the following year.

I would still like to do it, but not alone. Just having a decent watch stander, such as my Wife would make it doable. I just need to get warm and some sleep off and on.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:09   #71
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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As long as a fibreglass boat has been built to A1 standards as an ocean boat, then it should do as well as a steel boat in ice.

Bob Shepton sailed into ice off Greenland in 1978, 2000 & 2001 in a Westerly Discus (33ft). He sailed as far as 78 degrees 32' North before freezing seas forced them back (somewhat further north than the NWP...)

I'm sure my old W35 could do it, I'm not sure I could.
Bob has achieved much... be it by early in life luck or skill is open to interpretation of knowing more of the behind the scenes details posted by persons on his boat during those mentioned voyages... would I choose to go with him on his boat? I'm not interested but maybe you are... go for it...

If you think recreation boats are built to "A1 Standards" or any Classification Standard you need to ask the owner/builder for such certification and proof of the tests before you consider a pre-purchase marine survey... few have any such documents let alone Classification.

If you want to crew on a FRP yacht attempting any kind of a high latitude voyage be it a NWP underway at night in restricted fog visibility (50% of the time typical) risking collision with bergy bits and growlers then go for it... but please don't place your loved ones and family in harms way because you think FRP will get you home safe because Bob has done it...

To each their own responsibility... Adventure: is just poor planning. Roald Amundsen.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:20   #72
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

Cpt Nicolay Litau-S/Y Apostol Andrey
Adventure Club - The 3-nd voyage of the yacht "Apostol Andrey" - Yacht
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:45   #73
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Bob has achieved much... be it by early in life luck or skill is open to interpretation of knowing more of the behind the scenes details posted by persons on his boat during those mentioned voyages... would I choose to go with him on his boat? I'm not interested but maybe you are... go for it...

If you think recreation boats are built to "A1 Standards" or any Classification Standard you need to ask the owner/builder for such certification and proof of the tests before you consider a pre-purchase marine survey... few have any such documents let alone Classification.

If you want to crew on a FRP yacht attempting any kind of a high latitude voyage be it a NWP underway at night in restricted fog visibility (50% of the time typical) risking collision with bergy bits and growlers then go for it... but please don't place your loved ones and family in harms way because you think FRP will get you home safe because Bob has done it...

To each their own responsibility... Adventure: is just poor planning. Roald Amundsen.
Hi GG2015, all Westerly Conway 36 Aft Cockpit, and W35s were certified by Lloyds, and all came with an individual Lloyds Register Certificate. Easy to verify on the Westerly Owners Association werbsite.

I've sailed steel and GRP, my preference is GRP for many reasons, but I would not state that either was better than the other for ice conditions. It's the skipper that counts for more in either case.

As for your adverse comments about Bob Shepton, he did it three times and came home safe each time, does that record not speak for itself?
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Old 08-04-2015, 13:07   #74
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Panope, Sorry if your are not former military or now confused. I undoubtedly made a mistake thinking your attention to detail exemplified my thinking as well trained and exacting in execution. Not a life endangering blunder so I'll just make a new decision and move ahead... I'm human and not afraid to continue learning every day.

Regarding the initial 1996-1999 Expedition, the second in 2001-02 and third in 2004-06 of the yacht APOSTOL ANDREW... quite an accomplishment so early on in recent history of what seems like just a few years ago... meaning its still after decades of world countries attempts a rather recent accomplishment.

I think this snip from their website provides additional perspective "The sailing was carried out under support of the Russian NAVY; the Russian Air Force; the Government of Moscow; the Prefecture of the North administrative region of Moscow; the Governments of Tver town, Tverskaya and Kamchatskaya regions."

You will note in the NWP records that Government ships, icebreakers, submarines etc are now not being listed for obvious reasons. World Governments have deep pockets with vast resources unlike private vessel owners... and do not make public announcements when transiting the Arctic for strategic reasons.

I'm still amazed that an "Adventure Club" can find sponsors and individuals to support something which has been called by forum members as old hat, easy to do and just for the record books... lol It is clear which type of persons share the comradery to search the waters beyond the near shore horizon... they are amazing - KUDOS for achieving three record Expeditions!

Want to know who is truly the most amazing living yachtsman? David Scott Cowper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Scott_Cowper) Broken both sailing and motor yacht records in both directions... doing most circumnavigations solo. Pay attention to his latest metal motor yacht POLAR BOUND.

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 08-04-2015, 13:25   #75
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Hi GG2015, all Westerly Conway 36 Aft Cockpit, and W35s were certified by Lloyds, and all came with an individual Lloyds Register Certificate. Easy to verify on the Westerly Owners Association werbsite.

I've sailed steel and GRP, my preference is GRP for many reasons, but I would not state that either was better than the other for ice conditions. It's the skipper that counts for more in either case.

As for your adverse comments about Bob Shepton, he did it three times and came home safe each time, does that record not speak for itself?
Exactly on point - its all about the people and lets not forget how they use and maintain their boat. I'm sure glad I can make and learn from my own decisions. I was just saying that I'd not be in a 33' Westerly FRP challenging the NWP. If you want to - by all means.

How many other boats carry any kind of certification? Certified by Lloyds means what - they walked through the factory and received a fee for putting on their stamp? I'd like to see the professional engineering metrics as well as the incline stability test booklet etc... Please point me to anyone's website with a detailed certification about what it really means...

Be sure to checkout Bob's website - very accomplished lifetime: Skipper & Delivery Services by Bob Shepton - Home Page
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