Boat for polar cruising

[hpeer]

@GG2015,
Setting people and personalities aside for the moment, just talking boats, what is your opinion of the following...

1985 Alan Pape Steel Maid.
44' LOD, 50 loa
40,000 displacement
6 1/2 foot draught
1/4" keel and first 2 chines, balance 3/16"
Cutter rigged, just had a rigging inspection, clean bill
72 Hp Yanmar, with 1,000 hours
Espar heater, kero bulkhead back up, kero cook stove
150 gal fuel
180 gal water
Genoa, roller furling
Staysail yanked on
Aries, CPT autopilot

Wanda you think?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Fiberglass is fine as far as strength is concerned, but it can abrade very quickly from ice. A light ice flow can chew thru fiberglass pretty quickly, it might be ok for an accidental trip to the ice, but not if it was expected.

I haven't been through the NWP or down to the Peninsula but I have spent some time in a cold damp climate.
I don't think 'ice flow' is a major issue unless you are in a river with a lot of ice coming down it - in the spring frinstance. I've been in a bit of the white stuff and have had had no damage around the water line in my production GRP boat.
Rule #1 Avoid big bits of ice regardless of hull construction
Rule #2 Don't push on into sheet ice.... you won't get too far and backing out may be problematical.
Rule #3 don't overnight in FW if there is a clear blue sky and no wind.... you may be staying longer than you planned.

I've known a quite a few GRP boats that have been down to the Peninsula and don't recall any that have had hull damage from ice.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Should the hull insulation extend below the waterline for northern latitudes?

I'm insulated down to settee level which is probably a bit below sea level.... below there ..no... for several reasons....
Hard or near impossible to get at to insulate....
While I am often dealing with air temps between -2/+2 Celsius sea temp is normally +4/+8 C. I run about 8/12C in the cabin... living near to 'ambient' is good.
There is very little air exchange between the uninsulated areas and the bits I live in.

[Brob2]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I run about 8/12C in the cabin...

Is that the norm in those sort of latitudes?

[GG2015]

The first thing you need to know is a steel boat deteriorates from the inside out... with no insulation you have condensation - and it attacks steel faster than you expect... so a FRP boat is much better for someone who has no experience with building and maintaining a metal boat...

As for the above question regarding a 1985 Alan Pape Steel Maid here are my concerns.

1) A 1985 steel boat is going to result in an increased insurance risk and premium to match. Try to find a 2000+ something vessel.
2) For expeditions I would appreciate larger tankages as necessary. Look at Bruce Roberts designs where a 55' carries over 1,000 gallon of fuel.
3) I'd insist on thicker steel used on the keel and hull. 1/2" keel and 5/16 or 3/8" hull would be my choice. To much some will say... but when I built the expert advice was steel is economic so why not over build - you are not building a race boat - displacement is displacement be it 1/4 or 5/16 steel - build something to survive accidental groundings and bumps in the night.
4) I'd prefer more horsepower for a high latitude expedition boat because of the storms, currents and ice - extreme conditions. I also believe in hanging two alternators off the main so what starts out as 72hp is reduced by the second alt into the 60s which is not enough to my way of thinking for a 50' loa 40K# displacement. More hp is better in my opinion - I'd like to see a CP prop to take advantage of various loads vs extreme conditions. A fixed wheel is just that - a compromise. Remember expedition, not recreation touring...

Very little air exchange is an accident waiting to be discovered... air is your friend - as people breath/live aboard they put moisture into the cabin air - if your boat was not insulated during building then don't go north on a lark without a refit... a boat that cannot breath will suffocate with deterioration. Keep the air exchanges moving to minimize mold and 'rust' etc... of course you have to properly prepare metal and coat it with a high solids paint schema... its a protection system based on protecting steel with chemistry... don't be fooled by slick advertising... ask someone who is an expert with painting metal boats... ask Navy Chiefs for advise... I know what I have used for 30 years - a satisfied customer not interested in changing... the satisfaction is the proof.

Bottom line... always get a professional marine pre-purchase survey - money well spent.

See you outdoors... on the water!

[Panope]

I wonder if a viable strategy for transiting the NWP would be to use a boat small enough to trailer at highway speed. Stay home and wait comfortably for one of those "easy" ice years to develope. When the passage opens, hit the highway and arrive in Barrow AK ready to head East.

This strategy negates the problem of spending many months (or years) positioning for a passage attempt where one has no way of knowing if ice conditions will cooperate.

Steve

[northwestsailor]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

In is blog Peter Smith mentions that he spent some time in Brittany, working on a boat, is it your boat ?
Should you connection allow, would you post a pix ?

Yes, some more photos are under my profile. If you need more please let me know.

We are doing an extensive refit now in Port Angeles, WA so Rajah Laut should be looking better in the near future.

Peter Smith met the original owner of Rajah Laut, Jerry Noel, in Brunei but the actual completion was done in England.

[northwestsailor]

Originally Posted by GG2015

The NWP ice does not breakup from west to east... lol You undoubtedly have been listening to wifes tales... check the dates for ice breakup... the WEST is always late to open and close compared to the EAST.

Perhaps this time lapse of the Arctic Ice Cape will convince you that the ice breaks up West to East.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j8SGs_gnFk

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Brob2

Is that the norm in those sort of latitudes?

Um, well, it is on my boat....

I find that lots of boats maintain 20* Celcius plus down below... they have to rug up to go outside, end up with fear of the cold, savage condensation issues, cost of running heater, , etc etc etc

Living at close to ambient is good...for you and your boat.

And to address another issue... Tilman's boats were wooden... as is Fram

[Iodine]

Originally Posted by Benz

. The Wylo 30-something comes to mind as a steel-hulled boat that meets several of my standards.
Good luck searching, and while you do, check out perhaps the books "Northern Lights" (author forgotten), about a young guy who sails Labrador in a frail wooden engineless small schooner, and "North to the Night" by Alvah Simon, where he spends a winter frozen into arctic ice on his boat. On purpose!
Ben
zartmancruising dot com

One of the Wylo 35's has overwintered in both Antarctica and Greenland:
Iron Bark's travels: Iron Bark

But most owners seem to prefer slightly warmer climates....

Theres a company that builds them: Welcome to Voyaging Yachts
(not sure if they are still taking new orders thought)

There's also a 32ft centerboard version for sale at the moment: For Sale: £38,000 | canpyran.org

[GG2015]

Originally Posted by Panope

I wonder if a viable strategy for transiting the NWP would be to use a boat small enough to trailer at highway speed. Stay home and wait comfortably for one of those "easy" ice years to develope. When the passage opens, hit the highway and arrive in Barrow AK ready to head East.

This strategy negates the problem of spending many months (or years) positioning for a passage attempt where one has no way of knowing if ice conditions will cooperate.

Steve

Steve et al... more homework required... no roads to Barrow... lol You can drive to the Arctic... Inuvik on the Dempster Highway and go down the Mackenzie River to the Beaufort Sea... but not anywhere close to Nome since the NW Passage is from the Pacific Ocean Bering Sea Arctic Circle to the Atlantic Ocean Davis Strait Arctic Circle... but I like the idea of small portable watercraft... you could ask a Hercules C130 to porter it from Anchorage to Nome then make it an official NW Passage by crossing both Arctic Circles... don't forget to outfit enough economical fuel tankage for the voyage...

See you outdoors... on the water!

[GG2015]

Originally Posted by northwestsailor

Perhaps this time lapse of the Arctic Ice Cape will convince you that the ice breaks up West to East.

Sorry... it doesn't and I wouldn't voyage plan based on a 2009 stale data Youtube video. The NWS historical climate data tells the real story... you will be waiting in Nome for Pt. Barrow ice to clear while the yachts coming from the East will already be in Lancaster or even Bellot Strait. Rather than spoon feed you references I'll let you do your own due diligence... I've already done mine to my professional satisfaction and have the dates and actual ice charts for the past five years.

Smooth seas!

[GG2015]

Originally Posted by northwestsailor

Yes, some more photos are under my profile. If you need more please let me know.

We are doing an extensive refit now in Port Angeles, WA so Rajah Laut should be looking better in the near future.

Peter Smith met the original owner of Rajah Laut, Jerry Noel, in Brunei but the actual completion was done in England.

Impressive boat... would be interesting to learn what upgrades/outfitting you are attempting in Port Angeles WA rather than in Ballard/Seattle where ship vendors are a few blocks away from the docks... for your NW Passage attempt? Pixs appreciated.

Smooth seas!

[Panope]

Originally Posted by GG2015

Steve et al... more homework required... no roads to Barrow... lol You can drive to the Arctic... Inuvik on the Dempster Highway and go down the Mackenzie River to the Beaufort Sea... but not anywhere close to Nome since the NW Passage is from the Pacific Ocean Bering Sea Arctic Circle to the Atlantic Ocean Davis Strait Arctic Circle... but I like the idea of small portable watercraft... you could ask a Hercules C130 to porter it from Anchorage to Nome then make it an official NW Passage by crossing both Arctic Circles... don't forget to outfit enough economical fuel tankage for the voyage...

See you outdoors... on the water!

GG, Thanks for the clarification on the lack of road to Barrow. I like the Mackenzie river idea - would make I nice trip in and of itself.

Personally, I would not be concerned with other persons "official" definition of a NWP. Certainly it is important for some. If I remember correctly, Those adventurous farm dudes from Alberta dragged Idlewild down the Mackenzie, Headed west in the Arctic ocean then backtracked through the NWP to kick-off their circumnavigation.

Steve

[GG2015]

Originally Posted by Panope

GG, Thanks for the clarification on the lack of road to Barrow. I like the Mackenzie river idea - would make I nice trip in and of itself.

Personally, I would not be concerned with other persons "official" definition of a NWP. Certainly it is important for some. If I remember correctly, Those adventurous farm dudes from Alberta dragged Idlewild down the Mackenzie, Headed west in the Arctic ocean then backtracked through the NWP to kick-off their circumnavigation.

Steve

If you are going to go to all of the trouble to do a NW Passage I'd suggest it be done so it counts... I think they call it cheating when you miss the start or finish line... kind of like climbing to high camp but not summiting Mt. Everest and saying you climbed Everest... kind of.... ouch!

http://www.rccpf.org.uk/images/websi...-2014-X-5C.pdf

See you outdoors... on the water!