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Old 17-02-2015, 12:38   #16
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Originally Posted by SeaAlaska View Post
Check out the folks on Morgan's Cloud. Attainable Adventure Cruising and their Attainable Adventure Cruising website. These folks are some high latitude sailors who have an exhaustive website dealing with the production of such a boat called the Adventure 40 (aluminum) that is in preproduction mode and will cost approx $200,000. It is an exhaustive treatise of how this type of boat should be made from stem to stern and weighs in on the aluminum vs steel debate.

Also the French builder, Boreal, makes some well thought out high latitude boats. Much like the Ovni's or Garcia's. Closer to home, Waterline out of British Columbia makes some very nice steel boats!

Sam
I am in support of more boats like those (OVNI, Garcia, Boreal) to be built, as I would love to own one someday in the future, and the more that are built and sold, the better for buyers of used (or new) in the future.
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Regarding the "Adventure 40" boat:

It has been a few months since I last looked at that boat proposal on that site. So I may have a bit of a fuzzy recollection on this, but I think I am correct, because I was surprised by some of what I read (and the responses to the questions by people who follow that blog more closely). Why surprised? Because at first glance I thought it was supposed to be a "lower cost" Ovni or Boreal type boat (e.g. aluminum and built for high latitude sailing etc.). But I was later to learn some things are different than what I supposed at first.

As I recall, the Adventure 40 boat has not yet been built (as of January 2015), and is still only in the design discussion phase, AFAIK.

Secondly, as I recall, it is currently (or more recently) being proposed as built in Fiberglass (not aluminum) for the target $200K price point, with NO options and NO watertight bulkheads. Aluminum would be a more expensive boat.

Like I said earlier, I wish them luck and hope they are successful in bringing a new line of "adventure" type boats to market.
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Old 30-03-2015, 15:44   #17
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

I think the real question is to KISS and safe... a metal hull with protective keel for wheel and rudder in my first choice, add plenty of insulation and redundant or backup systems to ensure a timely passage because you don't have time to stop, order and receive equipment for repairs. If you don't have it aboard you will be wintering over in the Arctic.

Is anyone interested in a Northwest Passage in 2015 or 2016? See: Northwest Passage 2015 : Crew Looking for 2015 Northwest Passage Boat and a 55 foot Motor Vessel Yacht Looking for 2015 Expedition Partners

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 01-04-2015, 13:16   #18
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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How about Hawk, Beth & Evans Starzingers boat,its for sale.
I believe the new "HAWK" owner is planning an East to West 2015 NW Passage... stay tuned when departures happen in July...

Northwest Passage 2015

Anyone thinking of a NWP in 2015 or 2016?

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 05-04-2015, 13:46   #19
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

I don't think there's anything wrong with a composite hull for polar exploring, providing that it's been built properly for the task. (Admittedly, whether it's possible to find such a hull is an entirely different question...)

Pound for pound composites are far stronger than steel or aluminium. Steel's most redeeming quality is that it's cheap.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a composite hull that can absorb as much energy from an impact as a steel hull. It just wouldn't be as light as most composite hulls (but would be lighter than steel of course).
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Old 05-04-2015, 15:03   #20
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

You have several good points... steel is an economical and strong building material - cost is important - if you have ever owned a yacht then you know it can be an expensive vehicle... and preparing to go through the NWP requires exceptional preparation... while FRP and composite vessels have completed a NWP, I'll continue to employ my custom built steel trawler as being optimum since I built it for this specific high latitude cruising purpose in mind after commercial fishing in Alaska, I understand the rules that Mother Nature dictates to play in her garden... you need to come prepared with the best equipment and skills.

Regarding Morgan's Cloud A-40 new building boat yet to be built... I don't think it will be built for high latitude sailing for the stated $200K... hope I'm wrong but I don't see how it can be outfitted sail-away for that price.

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 05-04-2015, 22:10   #21
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Originally Posted by Tensen View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with a composite hull for polar exploring, providing that it's been built properly for the task. (Admittedly, whether it's possible to find such a hull is an entirely different question...)

Pound for pound composites are far stronger than steel or aluminium. Steel's most redeeming quality is that it's cheap.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a composite hull that can absorb as much energy from an impact as a steel hull. It just wouldn't be as light as most composite hulls (but would be lighter than steel of course).
Fiberglass is fine as far as strength is concerned, but it can abrade very quickly from ice. A light ice flow can chew thru fiberglass pretty quickly, it might be ok for an accidental trip to the ice, but not if it was expected.
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Old 05-04-2015, 23:00   #22
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

"accidental trip to the ice"

Attorney? Must be some hidden legal metaphor in that statement... lol

I don't know of a Master intending an accidental trip to the ice worth his salt.

:-)
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Old 05-04-2015, 23:24   #23
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

Not saying it is the best boat, just stating it can be done.
You may check below Libellule sail blog, possibly the first catamaran which sailed across the NWP.
Libellule owners are a Swiss familly, you will find entries in English, French and German.
I read somewhere, cannot remember in what language, Libellule had her hull reinforced (not fully) with a carbon/Kevlar coating.


Else, "best boat" would be a shallow draft boat, twin keel or best lifting keel.
Reason : Many areas are just un-chartered, and even when they are depth reading cannot be trusted.
Pushing ice flows | NW Passage
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Old 05-04-2015, 23:52   #24
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

Take a look at Kiwi Roa--it was built for the purpose and has cruised Antartica. Peter Smith is of a age that you might be able to talk him out of the boat if he hasn't sold it already.
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Old 06-04-2015, 00:20   #25
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Fiberglass is fine as far as strength is concerned, but it can abrade very quickly from ice. A light ice flow can chew thru fiberglass pretty quickly, it might be ok for an accidental trip to the ice, but not if it was expected.
Yes, some higher performing materials are probably called for. Kevlar, for example, has good abrasion qualities.
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:27   #26
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

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Originally Posted by Claude_Marie View Post

Else, "best boat" would be a shallow draft boat, twin keel or best lifting keel.
Reason : Many areas are just un-chartered, and even when they are depth reading cannot be trusted.
Pushing ice flows | NW Passage
IIRC A rather famous 1913ish expedition (Stephenson) had a small ship(85'?) with two keels. Mary Sachs or something? The problem was the keels not being in line with the prop afforded no protection to the prop from ice. I think she was poorly regarded for ice because of this feature.
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:13   #27
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

Thanks for all the comments... but they are so off-base as stale history that I'm choosing to not be caught in a spiders web because they fail to show any due diligence to gain up-to-date ice navigation skills or knowledge - did you come with the problem or bring a suggested solution... there are basically three classes of people (Northwest Passage 2014: Three classes of people... The few who make things happen. The many who watch things happen. The majority who have no idea whats happened and Northwest Passage 2014: Observations during a 2014 Northwest Passage - There are those doing it, those watching it and those who don't seem to see what is going on - ADD BOB PERRY TO YOUR TEAM OF ADVISORS and Northwest Passage 2014: SAILORS SAY the Darndest Things on a 2014 Northwest Passage (check back for updates)) what could be or what was done or used is not a basis for repeating those mistakes again. It doesn't require a synapse to say its ok if you make an "accidental trip to the ice" or use a "catamaran Libellule" to say its ok if you add an ice-belt of kevlar to reinforce the hull else continue this rhetoric saying the best boat is... OMG why doesn't the next post cite BELZEBUB with a steel ice bow-bra making it ok... (Northwest Passage 2012 dot com: S/V BELZEBUB II - Second attempt at a NW Passage and Northwest Passage 2012 dot com: S/V BELZEBUB2 agound while making more compromises in pursuit of a NW Passage in 2012) or why not just say its better to use a small horsepower diesel engine for economy without adding that all of these underpowered yachts became stuck in the ice last year... (Northwest Passage 2014: S/V ALTAN GIRL requests help from USCGC HEALY after becoming stuck in sea ice off Barrow Alaska and Northwest Passage 2014: VIDEOS - STUCK IN PACK ICE AND NORTHWEST PASSAGE YACHT RESCUED BY ICEBREAKER and Northwest Passage 2014: VIDEO - S/V AVENTURA IV and S/V SUILVAN stuck in Lancaster Sound ice 14 hours on July 30, 2014 ) or tell me its ok for yachts to enter high ice concentrations because Jesse says so... Northwest Passage 2014: "Ice Tactics" used by Jesse Osborn on S/V EMPIRICUS during a multi-year Northwest Passage attempt - COUNTER POINT BY JOHN ON S/V MORGANS CLOUD and lets not forget icebreakers and cruise ships being stuck in the ice in 2014... (Northwest Passage 2014: M/V SILVER EXPLORER stuck in Northwest Passage ice escorted by Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker) and lets not forget the jet-ski idiots (Northwest Passage 2014: Did Dangerous Waters "jetskis" complete a 2013 Northwest Passage? NO, they had to be rescued by the Canadian Coast Guard)

What about 2015? A repeat of 2014 for obvious reason - people are the greatest variable... from idiots, wannabes, skippers, captains and Master Mariners... The few who make things happen. The many who watch things happen. The majority who have no idea whats happened.

Don't expect a reply if you are flaming or once again making rhetorical comments... but if you have a reference to site with your new observation or knowledge then by all means chime in...

See you outdoors... on the water!
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:31   #28
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

Steel is no better if not engineered for ice, thou smaller steel boats, less than about 40' (depends some of the displacement) have over engineered plating and thus are better suited for polar regions.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:13   #29
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

In ice I would give strong preference to steel. Glass has the strength but not the abrasion resistance. Even thin ice will start cutting through layers of ice very quickly. Aluminum is more expensive and more difficult to work with than steel. Aluminum primary advantage light weight construction options, which isn't really something you want in ice.

So assuming you go with steel, you want soft chines so there is nothing to get hung up on.

I would stay away from a stern hung rudder. I'd get my rudder as deep under the water line as possible to prevent ice damage.

Insulation is a must as is a robust heating system. A Dickinson diesel stove maybe.

Everything should have a robust manual back up in case you lose power. Hand pumps, kerosene lights etc.

I'd prefer full keel since you are very likely to hit bottom in poorly charted regions.

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Old 06-04-2015, 12:52   #30
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Re: Boat for polar cruising

@ sdf, if it can be an inspiration :
Fleur Australe NWP successfully completed in 2009
Custom designed for expeditions/high latitudes by Philippe Poupon ( 1988 Transat Plymouth-Newport winner, Vendée Globe 1992, 3rd).


Was for sale, see description : http://www.cotweb.com/poupon.htm


Aluminium hull
Lifting keel.
Engne : Nanni (a rebadget John Deere, I think) : 165 HP.
Diesel tanks (x2) total : 1320,86 US Gallon !!!
Water : 528 US Gallon.
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