Crew Wanted: What do YOU charge for 'delivery'?

[Paul Annapolis]

I charge more than what respondents above have said. If an owner of a yacht (let's face it--a very expensive toy) wants to pay less to a "competitor", he can hire that person who is wiling to take on the work, the responsibility, the preparation, the risk, the exhaustion, being away from home, the travel etc etc etc rather than have me work a 24 hour day for what amounts to a very low hourly pay. Owners of yachts who either cannot handle the boat they bought, or cannot take a week or two to move it because they are too busy working (and earning in an hour or two perhaps what some captains charge per 24 hour day) should be willing to pay a decent wage to we professionals who leave home and accept great risk and responsibility to run their boats. None of us can ever afford a nice boat such as the ones our clients needs us to operate if we are only going to earn a few hundred a day--and for how many days a year?? If they need a labor market of professionals to perform these tasks, they should be willing to pay. I do not know how a "professional" can make it on $250 or $300 per day, but I won't do it and frankly, cannot understand how or why anyone else will do it and still refer to themselves as professional. Certainly someone may get upset with me for saying this, and I mean no ill will toward anyone, but at least I identify myself online here as a marine service provider. While a USCG ticket may not be required (although in some cases it is for insurance) just remember that it is a federal license! Other than airplane pilots, what other work demands a federal license??? That's got to be worth something more than a few hundred per day! Also, I do not understand charging by the mile. Does the boat go 100 miles in a day or three hundred miles in a day? Or is this an incentive to move it faster so the captain makes more per day, or what is the rationale? It's the time gone from home, moving the boat that counts and not the number of miles. A nice express cruiser at 20+ kts makes for an easier and faster trip in general than will a small sailboat at 5 kts.

[DominoX]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

It will be a tremendous learning experience. You'll compress years of on the water cruising experience in SoCal or Puget Sound into just a month or two of very intense experience. When you arrive back in Puget Sound you will know for sure if you do love sailing and want to continue.

Yeah, I've heard it's an AWFUL trip. But it's exactly that 'compressed' experience you wrote about that I'm after. I have very little experience sailing in these waters. All my experience has been in the Indian & Atlantic, and mostly following the trades, so comparatively easy going. The Pacific coast is an experience 'gap' I wanna fill with a pro onboard

[DominoX]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

Why buy the boat anywhere except in the Pacific NW / Vancouver BC-Vancouver Island? You have a huge selection there and no cost to bring it home.

What advantage do you anticipate when purchasing further south in California or Mexico?

Really the only advantage is choice/options. I've been looking for a few months in PNW and just don't find the sailboats I'm after. I'm finding a lot of plastic junk production sailboats that will happily cruise the inner passage, but few real bluewater boats of the caliber I'm looking for.

I'm looking for a decent 27-35' for around $50-60K, and I have another $20K to outfit her properly for long term cruising. Seeing lots of suitable candidates in CA and MX, very few and far between in WA & BC.

[DominoX]

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

I charge more than what respondents above have said.

Owners of yachts who either cannot handle the boat they bought, or cannot take a week or two to move it because they are too busy working (and earning in an hour or two perhaps what some captains charge per 24 hour day) should be willing to pay a decent wage to we professionals who leave home and accept great risk and responsibility to run their boats. None of us can ever afford a nice boat such as the ones our clients needs us to operate if we are only going to earn a few hundred a day--and for how many days a year?? If they need a labor market of professionals to perform these tasks, they should be willing to pay.

Paul,

All good points. The original question was "What do YOU charge for delivery" and we didn't get YOUR reply to that ... just your valid opinion that 250-300 is too little.

Personally, I'm not one of those 'fat cats' with a huge budget (or boat). I have a measly $60K or so to buy a decent 'up to 35 ft' bluewater sailboat which I want to outfit for fulltime cruising. I'm just not finding them where I live.

I plan to use a delivery captain not only to help me get a boat home from a SoCal or MX port if that's how things turn out, but also to gain a little experience in these West Coast waters (which I'm lacking) with a pro onboard. I agree that's worth more than $250 per day, but that's what most people seem willing to pay, since that seems to be the going rate.

[wagsea6b]

I was recently faced with your dilemma. We ended up purchasing our boat in Alameda, CA and had to decide whether to try and bash our way up to the PNW or truck it. We ultimately chose to truck it to avoid the bash and get to use it sooner.

The goods:
- decommissioning and recommissioning forced me to get really involved with almost every inch of the boat and gave me a good feel for the systems, rigging, layout, etc and what was needing/nearing replacement.

The bad:
- approx $4,000 decomissioning
- approx $5,000 trucking
- approx $4,000 re-commissioning

...and that was with me doing everything to recommission except the rigging.

So it's a tradeoff I guess. Those $$$ could have gone a long way towards offshore gear and skipper fees but at what cost of wear and tear on the boat...who knows.

At least that's how I'm trying to reconcile it until I can afford to eat out again...

[DominoX]

Originally Posted by wagsea6b

I was recently faced with your dilemma. We ended up purchasing our boat in Alameda, CA and had to decide whether to try and bash our way up to the PNW or truck it. We ultimately chose to truck it to avoid the bash and get to use it sooner.

So it's a tradeoff I guess. Those $$$ could have gone a long way towards offshore gear and skipper fees but at what cost of wear and tear on the boat...who knows.

WOW ... $13K sure is a lot. I'm only planning to spend around $60K so that's nearly a quarter again of my budget.

I'm considering a 1985 Baba 30 in San Diego. I'm working on the assumption the wear-n-tear on the 30 year old is negligible since she's done far longer passages and crossed the Pacific many times, and this uphill beat to Seattle surely can't be the most stressful thing she's been up against.

[TacomaSailor]

"The bad:
- approx $4,000 decomissioning
- approx $5,000 trucking
- approx $4,000 re-commissioning

...and that was with me doing everything to recommission except the rigging."

I've got to wonder about those costs.

In March this year I checked with yards here in San Diego for getting our 40' cutter onto a truck for shipping.

$1,200 if I do as much work as possible.

Hylebos Marina/Yard in Tacoma, WA said they would take the boat off the truck, step the mast, and put the 40' boat back in the water for $1,000.

[TacomaSailor]

"I'm considering a 1985 Baba 30 in San Diego. I'm working on the assumption the wear-n-tear on the 30 year old is negligible since she's done far longer passages and crossed the Pacific many times, and this uphill beat to Seattle surely can't be the most stressful thing she's been up against."

You might want to reconsider that assumption.

There is nothing dangerous or difficult about heading north up the coast as long as you heed the excellent weather forecasts. But the trip will put a lot, really a lot, of stress on the rigging, mast, motor, and your nerves.

You are not going to be sailing very much unless you have several months available to pick the weather windows. Of, if you wait until after mid-October you will be sailing in full gales and 25' seas much of the time as the winter SW storms roll in.

Almost every inch of the 1,150 NM from San Diego to Cape Flattery will be into 4' NW swell with a wind waves on top of it. You'll be up and over five waves a minute (if you are lucky otherwise seven per minute as they steepen). As the wind picks up each afternoon to NNW 15 - 20 the wind waves will steepen the swell and you'll be falling off a few every hour.

The poor 'ole boat will accelerate down the backs of the swell, rapidly decelerate at the bottom and then struggle to make it up and over the next swell. The mast and rigging will suffer that acceleration/deceleration cycle on every wave and the average period out there is ten to twelves seconds. The engine will also be speeding up and slowing down as the governor tries to keep the engine load constant.

I would not want to do the trip in a boat that I had not personally verified every fitting, every inch of rig, and all the mast/spreader/top plate/step attachments.

Autopilot - is it strong enough to deal with the constant speedup/slowdown? A Tartan 42 which I took from PV to San Diego had a nice autopilot for off the wind or close hauled work up to 20 knots apparent. But, motoring into the waves and swell with 20 knots apparent (about 8 hours a day) it was not up to the task and the two of us had to hand steer.

The wind will almost always be within 30 degrees of your desired course so sailing will add a lot of slow miles to your course and even then you'll be taking that persistent swell from way ahead of the beam.

Motoring in a Baba 30 will be 4 knots at best and will require you to cross almost every bar entrance along the coast as you go in for fuel.

Radar is almost mandatory - does the Baba have it and is it in excellent condition? Are you skilled in the use of radar? During my four trips along US West Coast I have spent over 100 hours using radar in 100-yard visibility fog. And, at night with all the fishing boats out there you would be foolish to not have radar.

I've had four desperately close encounters with large fast ocean going vessels along the coast and radar was a godsend as the situations developed.

You sound like you have experience. The excellent things you will learn on the trip north are somewhat unique to the US West Coast and are good to know but may not be applicable to most other areas.

- day after day into light to moderate swells and wind waves
- days of fog and cold clammy mist that limits visibility
- days of numbing cold that requires every piece of cold weather foul weather gear (the only way I stayed warm at night along the Washington to SF Coast was to wrap up in an electric blanket)
- night after night dodging fish traps, gill nets, and long lines
- entering and exiting small harbors protected by bars with breaking waves

I can't begin to stress the cold factor. The water temperature is always 55 degrees or less, once north of San Francisco. The NW wind is always coming from the Gulf of Alaska and is downright chilly. The humidity is always close to 100%. You will have an apparent wind from ahead of the beam the entire trip and it will never be less than your boat speed.

I am an expert at staying warm on sailboats, having raced and cruised Puget Sound for 30 some years, but always find it hard to stay warm at night anywhere off the US West Coast north of Santa Barbara.

Thermal Underwear
Wool pants and shirt
Wool sweater
down vest
Heavy rain gear
wool stocking cap

Standing a 4-hour watch at 2 AM is just down right miserable and my boat (two of the four trips) has a diesel fired heater that blows warm air out the companionway.


I'm glad I learned all that stuff and it sure makes most of the other sailing I've done seem pleasant and easy.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by DominoX

I'm considering a 1985 Baba 30 in San Diego. I'm working on the assumption the wear-n-tear on the 30 year old is negligible since she's done far longer passages and crossed the Pacific many times, and this uphill beat to Seattle surely can't be the most stressful thing she's been up against.

I have known several folks who have attempted the uphill slog to the PNW. They eventually trucked it.

Baba's are not designed as upwind sailboats. They like to reach.

A 30 year old rig is tired.

[TacomaSailor]

I am sure I do not know what you are looking for nor what are your expectations but I sure do find a lot, really a LOT, of excellent Blue Water cruisers with very distinguished pedigrees in the Pacific NW:

$59K 40’ 1982 Cape George Cutter (friends sailed a sistership boat from PacNW to Mexico and Australia and then shipped it home)

$63K 40’ 1977 Valiant 40 – THE classic short handed long distance cruiser

$75K 38’ 1977 Alajuela – another classic

$85K 38’ 1980 Hans Christian 38
$80K 38’ 1979 Hans Christian 38T
$65K 38’ 1980 Hans Christian 38 cutter
$59K 38’ 1978 Hans Christian 38 cutter

Can’t get a much stronger 38’ boat than an Hans Christian – several friends have sailed them from Seattle to the US East Coast

$84K 38’ 1983 TaShing Panda 38 (another version of the Baba)

$75K 37’ 1984 Tayana 37– The most popular long distance cruiser in the world (so bob perry claims)
$68K 37’ 1979 Tayana 37

$70K 35’ 1980 Rafiki

$74K 34’ 1990 Pacific Seacraft 34 (two friends sailed the 37’ version from Seattle to Panama and back to Mexico)

$75K 31’ 1989 Cape George Cutter (two friends sailed theirs from Seattle to Mexico, Hawaii, Alaska, Mexico, Galapagoes, Australia) it is a fantastic strong and seaworthy dream. If I was buying a boat in the 28' to 32' range this is the boat I would get. The owners who did the circuit I described were very serious sailors and had done many US west coast to Hawaii, Alaska, Panama, South Pacific trips in other larger boats. They just loved their Cape George 31. I'd be glad to try to put you in touch with them, although the last time I saw them was here in San Diego and they were headed SW to New Zealand and where ever - for the third or fourth time.

$75K 31’ Pacific Seacraft

$58 30’ 1984 Nonsuch Ultra two friends (one who had never sailed before) sailed this boat from San Francisco to Mexico, Panama, the US East Coast, shipped it to Italy, and sailed the Med for three years


$55K 30’ 1980 Baba 39

$48K 34’ 1980 Tartan 37 – I’ve got a lot of sea miles on a 1982 Tartan 42 and loved the boat, the design, and the construction. A friend had a 37’ that I thought was just as nice and well built.

$40K 30’ 1978 Baba

$39K 32’ 1986 Sabre – Friends sail their Sabre 42 Seattle to Hawaii and back then Seattle to Panama and are now in Maine. Sabre makes a great, fast, and very sturdy boat

$38K 38’ 1980 Mason – Another old classic – this used to be one of the all time great long distance sturdy cruisers before PAE decided to build Nordhavns.

$37K 30’ 1979 Nonsuch

$36K 35’ 1984 J/35 Friends cruised a late ‘80s J42 from Seattle to the US east coast. It was strong and fast but a sporty ride

There are several dozen more very strong and well respected blue water boats listed in Yachtworld for the Pac NW 28' - 40' $32,000 to $75,000 1975 to current

I would rather spend the $10K it will cost, one way or another, to get a boat from SoCal to Puget Sound on the boat. You say you can spend $60K - so add the $10K to it and bargain hard for one of the gems I've listed. I always figure any list price will come down at least 10% and as winter approaches, 15%.

You may have other very good reasons to buy in SoCal but a lack of quality boats in the Pacific NW is not one of them, IMHO!

[DominoX]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

I am sure I do not know what you are looking for nor what are your expectations but I sure do find a lot, really a LOT, of excellent Blue Water cruisers with very distinguished pedigrees in the Pacific NW:

You may have other very good reasons to buy in SoCal but a lack of quality boats in the Pacific NW is not one of them, IMHO!

Dear TacomaSailor,

You are clearly experienced and seemingly particularly so in these waters. So thank you for your insights and contributions to this discussion. Much appreciated. I hope to leverage your experience much more as I come up-to-speed about my new sailing grounds here in the PNW.

However, above you wrote "... may have good reasons to buy in SoCal but a lack of quality boats in the Pacific NW is not one of them ...". Sadly, once you actually go see the boats as I have, you may find they are not as 'quality' as the pictures and listings suggest.

I'm aware of most of the boats you called out above (those that meet my price range and size criteria anyway - many of those you listed do not). I have personally seen and inspected 17 boats in the 4 months since the beginning of summer. I've traveled to BC twice and 3 times to Oregon. And all over WA including multiple trips to the islands.

Believe me when I say the problem is not that we don't have good pedigree boats (of course we do) ... but rather that we have too few good QUALITY boats that I can live-aboard and cruise full-time for 5-10 years as I plan. Which is why I now need to look outside WA as well.

Many you listed just do not meet my needs in terms of having reasonably low time motors, a brand of motor you can find parts for just about anywhere, water or fuel tanks that are too small, aging rigging and sails, blah, blah, blah.

And finally some of boats I'd be keen on considering simply aren't even for sale in WA ... like some Albergs, BCCs, Island Packets, etc ... whereas they ARE available further out.

This is all waaaay off-topic from the original subject, but I hope this helps you understand my position and rationale a bit better.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

"I'm considering a 1985 Baba 30 in San Diego. I'm working on the assumption the wear-n-tear on the 30 year old is negligible since she's done far longer passages and crossed the Pacific many times, and this uphill beat to Seattle surely can't be the most stressful thing she's been up against."

You might want to reconsider that assumption.

There is nothing dangerous or difficult about heading north up the coast as long as you heed the excellent weather forecasts. But the trip will put a lot, really a lot, of stress on the rigging, mast, motor, and your nerves.

You are not going to be sailing very much unless you have several months available to pick the weather windows. Of, if you wait until after mid-October you will be sailing in full gales and 25' seas much of the time as the winter SW storms roll in.

Almost every inch of the 1,150 NM from San Diego to Cape Flattery will be into 4' NW swell with a wind waves on top of it. You'll be up and over five waves a minute (if you are lucky otherwise seven per minute as they steepen). As the wind picks up each afternoon to NNW 15 - 20 the wind waves will steepen the swell and you'll be falling off a few every hour.

The poor 'ole boat will accelerate down the backs of the swell, rapidly decelerate at the bottom and then struggle to make it up and over the next swell. The mast and rigging will suffer that acceleration/deceleration cycle on every wave and the average period out there is ten to twelves seconds. The engine will also be speeding up and slowing down as the governor tries to keep the engine load constant.

I would not want to do the trip in a boat that I had not personally verified every fitting, every inch of rig, and all the mast/spreader/top plate/step attachments.

Autopilot - is it strong enough to deal with the constant speedup/slowdown? A Tartan 42 which I took from PV to San Diego had a nice autopilot for off the wind or close hauled work up to 20 knots apparent. But, motoring into the waves and swell with 20 knots apparent (about 8 hours a day) it was not up to the task and the two of us had to hand steer.

The wind will almost always be within 30 degrees of your desired course so sailing will add a lot of slow miles to your course and even then you'll be taking that persistent swell from way ahead of the beam.

Motoring in a Baba 30 will be 4 knots at best and will require you to cross almost every bar entrance along the coast as you go in for fuel.

Radar is almost mandatory - does the Baba have it and is it in excellent condition? Are you skilled in the use of radar? During my four trips along US West Coast I have spent over 100 hours using radar in 100-yard visibility fog. And, at night with all the fishing boats out there you would be foolish to not have radar.

I've had four desperately close encounters with large fast ocean going vessels along the coast and radar was a godsend as the situations developed.

You sound like you have experience. The excellent things you will learn on the trip north are somewhat unique to the US West Coast and are good to know but may not be applicable to most other areas.

- day after day into light to moderate swells and wind waves
- days of fog and cold clammy mist that limits visibility
- days of numbing cold that requires every piece of cold weather foul weather gear (the only way I stayed warm at night along the Washington to SF Coast was to wrap up in an electric blanket)
- night after night dodging fish traps, gill nets, and long lines
- entering and exiting small harbors protected by bars with breaking waves

I can't begin to stress the cold factor. The water temperature is always 55 degrees or less, once north of San Francisco. The NW wind is always coming from the Gulf of Alaska and is downright chilly. The humidity is always close to 100%. You will have an apparent wind from ahead of the beam the entire trip and it will never be less than your boat speed.

I am an expert at staying warm on sailboats, having raced and cruised Puget Sound for 30 some years, but always find it hard to stay warm at night anywhere off the US West Coast north of Santa Barbara.

Thermal Underwear
Wool pants and shirt
Wool sweater
down vest
Heavy rain gear
wool stocking cap

Standing a 4-hour watch at 2 AM is just down right miserable and my boat (two of the four trips) has a diesel fired heater that blows warm air out the companionway.


I'm glad I learned all that stuff and it sure makes most of the other sailing I've done seem pleasant and easy.

Wow, sure sounds like something I really don't want to do. I would rather just wack myself in the head first with a hammer and get it over with.

[TacomaSailor]

"Many you listed just do not meet my needs in terms of having reasonably low time motors, a brand of motor you can find parts for just about anywhere, water or fuel tanks that are too small, aging rigging and sails, blah, blah, blah."

... well then you have a great adventure ahead of you.

Finding a low hour motor in a boat with new sails and rigging will be a good project - especially for less than $60,000. Finding large tankage in a boat under 35' will make it even more interesting.

"And finally some of boats I'd be keen on considering simply aren't even for sale in WA ... like some Albergs, BCCs, Island Packets, etc ... whereas they ARE available further out."

I've sailed a lot on an Alberg 30 and IP 42. I know quite a bit about the IP line because my Caliber 40, and all the Calibers from the 30 up to the 40 were known as the "Poor Man's Island Packet." They were aimed directly at the IP market but priced 40% lower.

The Alberg is a great sailing short handed boat and would be a real treat. The IP boats are pretty and pretty slow. They would be way down my list of boats for a long distant or oceanic cruise. My IP friends (one was an IP salesperson) motored about twice as frequently as did my boat. The IP 40 needed about 3-knots more apparent wind to sail than did our Caliber.

But, they did have a lot of fuel tankage for motoring.

Friends had a BCC 28 and I sailed all over Western Mexico with them for a couple years. Mike eventually single handed it from Puerto Vallarta to Hilo, Hawaii. His wife and I talked to him for hours each day on my HAM radio as he made that long voyage all by himself.

The BCC is way up there on the list of nice boats that would be great for a smaller long distance cruiser.

Do you have a reason for wanting to stay at 35' or smaller?

Are you trying to get the boat back to Puget Sound this year or will you wait till the next northbound season beginning in May 2016?

Good luck with the search and the trip north and we'll be interested in what you buy and how you get it home.

[DominoX]

"Finding a low hour motor in a boat with new sails and rigging will be a good project - especially for less than $60,000. Finding large tankage in a boat under 35' will make it even more interesting"

From what I'm reading in your posts, I suspect I've been around boats as long as you. I bet we have the same reasonable expectations about what $60K buys and doesn't. This will be my 3rd sailboat, so I know what's possible. If you look closely, I never said I'm looking for a sailboat with "low hour motor, with new sails and rigging" all for under $60K. What I hoped to convey is that in all 17 boats I've looked at so far, none of them met my expectation in terms of motor time, age and condition of sails/rigging, etc.

We're debating a trivial point. You claim there are LOTS of quality boats in WA, so why look elsewhere? I on the other hand assert that I've found some (often better condition) sailboats out-of-state, so why shouldn't I consider those? There are great boats outside PNW that have been repowered, often with new rigging and/or new sails ... all within my budget, so why shouldn't I look seriously at those?

It really doesn't matter where I buy. What matters is that I get the the right boat for the right price ALL UP (i.e. including whatever it might cost to get it here if needed). Which is how this thread started ... me simply asking what delivery captains charge, not asking to get into a lengthy debate about which is the better boat or which state has the best boats for sale.

"Do you have a reason for wanting to stay at 35' or smaller?"

Since I'll be single-handed, I don't need anything bigger. Like Lin and Larry, I'm a minimalist. 27-35' is plenty for me. Also much cheaper to moor, maintain and insure than the bigger rigs.

"Are you trying to get the boat back to Puget Sound this year or will you wait till the next northbound season beginning in May 2016?"

I'm looking to buy during the winter when prices are better. So if I buy out-of-state and choose to sail home rather than truck her, I'll bring her back early next summer.

[TacomaSailor]

Sounds like you have a good plan in mind.

Looking at all those boats will be fun and will keep you busy during the upcoming El Nino winter in SoCal. After we get Seattle like rains down here for three or four months during the upcoming winter there will be a lotof boat owners ready to sell cheap.