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Old 22-02-2011, 10:40   #1
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Idea to Reduce Somali Piracy ?

This problem only seems to be getting worse as shown by the tragedy aboard the SV Quest and others.

I had an idea that might help the situation. Does anyone here have a good understanding of the international laws who can say if it is feasible?

My understanding is that international law limits what can be done to prevent piracy there, so we can only respond to it instead. There are issues with the NATO or other warships having the authority to board vessels that just appear to be up to no good, and issues as to where the pirates would be held, tried and jailed.


Why not have the UN or some other body pass a resolution that establishes some zone beyond the coastal waters of Somalia as a no-go area for any vessels over 40 feet in length. Any unidentified larger vessels in that zone would be destroyed on site. That would enable:
  • coastal trade in Somalia (large vessel could be close to the coast)
  • fishing (small open fishing boats could go anywhere their range would carry them) and
  • most importantly it would prevent the pirate "motherships" from operating.
Without the motherships the pirates range and effectiveness would be hamstrung.

Would that work?

Craig
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P.S. I'm not looking for a debate about whether cruisers should be armed. That one has gone around and around many times before. Arm yourself or not, as you desire. Instead, I'm looking for discussion about ways to enable the world governments to put a lid on these criminals.
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Old 22-02-2011, 10:52   #2
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

If you study all the various boating/shipping sites regarding the pirates, it appears that a lot is about to take place.
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Old 22-02-2011, 10:52   #3
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

No go zones have been used in the past. Unfortunately they are usually considered blockades. I don't think international law supports this except in war, or embargo. From a cruiser perspective, armed convoy escorts would probably be the best bet. Queued on each side of the passage and making regular transits would be the cheapest and most effective way of crossing the danger zone. None of the taxpayer supported navies seem too interested in what has been their historical role in these situations right now. So taking a collection from those cruisers determined to pass through that area, and hiring a private gunship, is most likely the only tactic that will work. Full time support of an armed ship will cost $2-3 Million/year to operate. Remember you have to pay danger pay to experienced paramilitary crew that will need to be rotated. The cost of maintenence and fuel, and the cost of armaments and replacements, and fees, permits, negotiations with governments of adjoining countries, etc...

Or avoid that part of the world until the pirates annoy someone, (with the big guns), enough to take action.
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:01   #4
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

The problem is Somalia needs a government. And until someone takes over and sets up laws/regulations its just going to continue to be bad lands/waters run by the ones with the biggest & best armed gang. And I'm sure the people that live/survive there are not having any fun either with their internal wars.
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:04   #5
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny chaos View Post
If you study all the various boating/shipping sites regarding the pirates, it appears that a lot is about to take place.
Could you provide some links to the membership?

Chris
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:07   #6
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

It's a really big stretch of water. It's over 3000 kilometers of coast line. Extend that out forty miles (and that's pretending that the pirates don't go into any neighboring waters, or go out further, which they absolutely do) and you're talking about 168,000 square kilometers of water.

Even here in San Diego, in US waters with a SEAL training base, two US Navy bases, Camp Pendelton USMC base, Customs, DEA, ICE, numerous USCG stations, and FBI all over the place we still have drug smugglers that make it through the water all the time. And that's with all of our assets here, with land based towers and recon instruments, and full jurisdiction.

You're talking about a fraction of the resources and hundreds or thousands of times the amount of area to cover coupled with international jurisdiction issues. Solving anyone of those problems is Herculean and still leaves the other two glaring back at you.
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:14   #7
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

Not to be the token liberal here but the reason Somalians don't care if they live or die on a vessel is because they are desperate in ways I don't think any of us can ever understand. They have no central government, there is no criminal justice system, there is no health department, there are no schools, there is nothing. You can make the situation even worse for them with heavier enforcement (which is completely untenable) and you have not solved the root issue.

In no way am I claiming that dropping bags full of tax payer dollars strapped to candy bars with little American flags is the way to fix this. But you can't talk about problems with Somalia without addressing the unique conditions that exist in that failed nation state.

I know it's as American as apple pie to add firearms and violence to any given situation to achieve a desired outcome but that rarely works outside of movies. I certainly don't know the solution in Somalia but I know that as long as poor uneducated people with nothing to live for exist they will disregard all human life including their own.
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:23   #8
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Could you provide some links to the membership?

Chris

I didn't save links.
Look at shipping sites and Loyd's of London.
There also appears to be much military action going on which
I, at least, have not been aware of ( Search)

This is just a small sample.
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:36   #9
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

I am certain the Yanks will be preparing something as we speak! The UK has also just about had enough of this crap,add the Russians and the Koreans to the list of people you have pissed off........ hard line is surely days or weeks away, I would not want to be a Pirate right now!
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:45   #10
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

How about taking a sailboat full of SEALS through the area at random intervals..... Pirates show up, then SURPRISE! When the first dozen pirate bands are never heard from again, the rest will rethink their ideas.

The issue with taking the "liberal" point of view is that you are trying to apply Western ideology to people who do not understand (nor ever will) anything but pure Darwinism. It is like teaching a pig to fly; wastes your time and pisses off the pig!
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Old 22-02-2011, 11:56   #11
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
How about taking a sailboat full of SEALS through the area at random intervals..... Pirates show up, then SURPRISE! When the first dozen pirate bands are never heard from again, the rest will rethink their ideas.

The issue with taking the "liberal" point of view is that you are trying to apply Western ideology to people who do not understand (nor ever will) anything but pure Darwinism. It is like teaching a pig to fly; wastes your time and pisses off the pig!
I like the SEAL idea...

The UN is a totally toothless organization...probably why we didn't or still haven't paid some huge dues thing to it in years...we host the building...the rest is a joke...nice idea...but when you have to deal with socialists...all negotiating is fruitless.

And you are correct...trying to deal with desparate, lawless people...yep...like trying to teach pigs to fly.
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Old 22-02-2011, 12:38   #12
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Re: Idea to reduce Somali piracy?

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...you're talking about 168,000 square kilometers of water.

Even here in San Diego, in US waters with a SEAL training base, two US Navy bases, Camp Pendelton USMC base, Customs, DEA, ICE, numerous USCG stations, and FBI all over the place we still have drug smugglers that make it through the water all the time. And that's with all of our assets here, with land based towers and recon instruments, and full jurisdiction.
Good point. It is a huge area with lots of operational problems. That's in part why I was limiting my imaginary no-go zone to large vessels. It limits the problem to the boats that are easiest to spot with radar. But there's no getting around the fact that it's a huge area. Maybe satellite radar to track the large ships? Is there such an aminal?

I agree that just shooting the bad guys won't permenantly fix the problem, because if you have nothing to lose you'll take the risk regardless of the likelihood that you'll die. A whole failed nation is a lot of potential volunteers for even nearly suicide pirate ops.

My approach is to make it more expensive and difficult for the "investors" behind the pirates to operate. If they can't rely on motherships to act as a base of operations, and if all the good targets stay well offshore, then it will be a lot harder to be successful pirates. And if we can eliminate motherships, the area that needs survellance would be much smaller. It is admittedly a band-aid solution, but band-aids can be pretty helpfyl sometimes.

Craig
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Old 22-02-2011, 12:45   #13
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Re: Idea to Reduce Somali Piracy ?

Everytime you see one shoot him!
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Old 22-02-2011, 12:57   #14
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Re: Idea to Reduce Somali Piracy ?

Somalia is a failed state,and most governments don't want to get involved with that tar baby. Or does the phrase "Blackhawk down" sound unfamiliar?

What you do with failed states, terrorists, and uncontrolled thugs is fairly simple: You declare war or conduct warlike acts of aggression, and you tell the bleeding hearts to go helix themselves while you take care of business. then you have to deal with the flack, damage control, lawsuits, international complaints...But if you can't handle that, you shouldn't be running a government.

The problem these days is money. One US citizen's life is valued at approximately $3-8 million dollars, depending on which agency is going the valuation. The FAA is among the cheapest. So, four citizens were killed after several year, the wereguild for their deaths would amount to about $20 million. If you can't run the war effort for less than, say, five million a year? Government logic is that it is cheaper to let one die every year, than spend the extra money. And that's exactly how it is calculated and done.

It takes a LOT of po'd taxpayers to buck that system.

Of course, Congress can issue letters of marque and reprisal and allow good old boys to conduct private shooting tours at zero government expense...but that gets back into problems with foreign nations and treaties, letters of marque and reprisal are considered primitive, unsociable, illegal, and outright irresponsible by the bleeding hearts.

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Old 22-02-2011, 12:57   #15
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Re: Idea to Reduce Somali Piracy ?

bit like cockroaches on a boat,find the nest/s treat with boric acid,kills all that come in contact,and sterilises the next generation.

somalia has only a a few all weather harbours,the rest are beach landing places only useful to outboard driven beach able boats.

time these people get the same treatment as international terrorists...........
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