Idea to Reduce Somali Piracy ?

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

I don't think it is helpful to categorize Somalis as either savages or extremist Muslims who are ready to blow themselves up for the slightest reason. Somalis are YOU without all the opportunity.

That is not exactly true. You can judge a country by it's people, and you can judge a people by their country. In the last few hundred years western, (before it bacame secular it was Christian), culture taught a few fundamental truths that led to the development of our civilization. Without a culture that values these truths no civilization is possible. Somalia is a failed state because the people chose it to be that way. If you will read recent history they deliberatly tore down their own government. Warlords have power in their own fiefdoms, not just because they have guns, but because they have the support of thousands of faithful followers that support the violence and "their" warlords bid for power. Opportunity??? They had thousands of years of the same opportunity as our forefathers had in our own countries that were violent wartorn lands run by brigades of mauraders making any attemp to build a civilized life impossible. We chose to change and live lives of farming and manufacturing. Until the Somalians make that same choice they will continue to live lives of savagery. The piracy at sea is just a reflection of what is happening on land. We only have a few choices.

1. ignore it and hope it goes away
2. take military action that will eliminate short term the threat against shipping
3. Conquor the entire country and establish proxy rule.
4. attempt to educate the Somalian people on western thinking.
All of these have short comings, in the long run we will see what is the most successfull.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I'll be one of those

The UN is doing exactly what the international community wants - therefore how can it not be working properly? I don't think they ever issued a Guarantee to bring about World Peace . and have no capacity of their own to impose it.

The disagreement that many have with the UN is that it is not doing enough (ignoring those for a minute who think the UN does too much ).........but you have to understand that the UN is YOU (and me) via our own National Governments - it is not some mythical force for good in the Universe (I think the Pope has that market cornered )......the UN is simply one avenue (albeit a complex one) through whom things can get done. If the folks around the table all want something done. Mostly they don't really want something done, just to look like they are trying / have done something (and have someone with no guns to blame - like the UN).

It's not a perfect world. But a bit of understanding of how it works (rather than confusing that with how would like it to be) would probably help folks.

What make u think I don't have or anyone else for that matter doesn't know how it works.

The FIRST lines of it's charter talks about security.

Sorry...but to me performance sort of equals "working"...where is the UN in all of this piracy?...where has it been with the Southeastern asia piracy?

Rather than saw people don't understand how the UN works..tell us how it's going to increase "security" in the region. People are dying...I hear nothing...

Somalia: Pirates attack UN aid ship, prompting call for action



20 May 2007 – Following a deadly attack on an aid ship in the waters off Somalia, the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) today appealed for international action against piracy, warning that it is seriously threatening relief deliveries to the country.
“We urge key nations to do their utmost to address this plague of piracy, which is now threatening our ability to feed 1 million Somalis,” said WFP Executive Director Josette Sheeran from the agency’s Rome headquarters


Note the date...the UN is a comittee ...that about sums it up.

[Triton318]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

We already know that muslims will self destruct just to be a martyr for the religion.

No. Some Islamist extremists will do that. Don't reinforce misconceptions with ignorance.

[ArcticTom]

The Norwegian is building two prisons, one in Somalia and one in the Seychelles. That way one could at least prosecute some of these guys. What do you thing of that? Will that help the situation to some degree?

(use google translate)http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/ar...artid=10038265

The problem is poverty! Bombing the hell out of starving people will not help!

[Triton318]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

In the last few hundred years western, (before it bacame secular it was Christian), culture taught a few fundamental truths that led to the development of our civilization. Without a culture that values these truths no civilization is possible.

When you say "our civilization," do you mean Western civilization in general? Or do you mean American society? Because if you mean the former, Western civilization has been around far longer than just the last few hundred years.

And what truths are you talking about? Civilizations emerged before the establishment of Christianity (and some after). Civilization is, in a way, independent of values. Features common to civilizations are:

- city life, with complex social organizations
- trade and economic activity
- governance through which social order is maintained
- division of labor
- record-keeping of some kind

[ArcticTom]

Originally Posted by rberrey

The U.S. Navy may need a new home port in that part of the world soon. I say we ( the U.S.) find us ( the U.S. ) a Somali willing to sell us ( the U.S.) one of their ports. We evict the the inhabatince ( now tresspassers ) and park our ( the U.S.) ships in our (the U.S.) new port. We let the SEAL,s ( U.S.) train by hunting Priates ( Somalis ), boats with holes in the hulls tend to sink. The world is a bad place , we ( the U.S.) need to stop worrying about what other countries think and do what is best for us( the U.S. ). rick

.... witch is exactly why many people around the world are not to crazy about the Americans.....

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by capngeo

How about taking a sailboat full of SEALS through the area at random intervals..... Pirates show up, then SURPRISE! When the first dozen pirate bands are never heard from again, the rest will rethink their ideas.

I was thinking along these lines yesterday. Two (submerged) submarines a decoy sailboat and two SEALS. One sub tows the decoy sailboat with the two SEALS onboard. When the pirates show weapons and/or threaten to come aboard. The two SEALS move forward behind a secure bulkhead and put on scuba gear. They then open the the custom valves and sink the sailboat until the decks are awash. Meanwhile the other sub surfaces and rapidly fills the pirate boat and anything on it with holes until it sinks. SEALS raise the decoy sailboat close valves and continue being towed to new location.

From reading about the piracy situation it seems their are pirates and investors involved in these operations. Once the Investors find they are buying boats for the pirates and not getting a return they will stop investing. Once the pirates realize alot of them are not returning they will stop being pirates. Or at least stop attacking sailboats. It's not ultimate solution but, it could be part of the solution.

[boatman61]

The problem with the UN is simple... its not a Democratic Body.... it can't be as long as it needs just one member off the Council to veto any action... just a forum for tit for tat messing about and point scoring.
I've long felt that the UN should have its own separate force... independent of any country to carry out its Peace Keeping missions... no mix of commands.. no language/culture differences etc... its given its mission and sets about achieving it independently of the US/Russia/China/UK/France... they have no veto.. just one vote like everyone else..
The Gurkhas of Nepal would be ideal for this... great fighters and fiercely loyal to their commanders... as for the Naval force.. this could be recruited from the cream of the services of the world.. above and below decks with an oath to serve the UN... sort of an elite sea going Foreign Legion...
As things stand the Powers that be are more interested in their own little power plays than the lives of a few mariners... there's plenty more fodder out there to cover any temporary gaps in manpower...
All the rants and appeals are a waste of time until it suits their agenda... this was proved when hundreds of thousands marched in the UK to stop Blair taking the UK into Iraq... he worked to his own agenda not to what the people wanted...
and we went in... 2 yrs on we found out it was based on lies...
Discover the Agenda and you'll discover the way to get action... until then all we can do is pound our 'keys'...

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

That is not exactly true. You can judge a country by it's people, and you can judge a people by their country. In the last few hundred years western, (before it bacame secular it was Christian), culture taught a few fundamental truths that led to the development of our civilization. Without a culture that values these truths no civilization is possible.

Before it became Christian, the Western world was arguably a secular state and demonstrably a pagan state. I think you'll find that the "fundamental truths" were penned (or inscribed) by a core of classical philosophers and thinkers without any reference to Christianity.

The merits of classical thinking are profoundly relevant today. They also are a legacy body of work of some of the clearest thinking about the human condition which has ever been documented. But they are not derived from Christianity.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

We already know that muslims will self destruct just to be a martyr for the religion. And going to jail would be like a hotel for some of these guys.

Wow. Words fail me.

You clearly have no Muslim friends or acquaintances. It's profoundly unjust to condemn a man/woman based upon creed, colour or religion. Most Muslims have values which aren't much different than you or I - and I suspect they'd be mortified to be lumped in with a mob of bandits solely based upon their religion.

As far as I can tell, there's very little to suggest that there's a religious underpinning to any of this. Somalia is a failed state, and it seems that the motivation for piracy is business rather than a religious crusade.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by muskoka

Before it became Christian, the Western world was arguably a secular state and demonstrably a pagan state. I think you'll find that the "fundamental truths" were penned (or inscribed) by a core of classical philosophers and thinkers without any reference to Christianity.

The merits of classical thinking are profoundly relevant today. They also are a legacy body of work of some of the clearest thinking about the human condition which has ever been documented. But they are not derived from Christianity.

Also... remember Christianty's History and what has been done in its name for personal gain over the centuries... non christians view you with as much distrust as you view them...
Dunno why this crept in... the Piracy's nothing to do with religion.. and this incident had nothing to do with bibles.. just good old $'s

[hummingway]

Good call Boatman. They weren't kidnapped for their or because of their bibles. Religion and race have no place in the discussion. The bibles might have been why these people were where they were but the other folks in the flotilla, for our purposes, didn't have a better or worse reason to transit the Suez.

[hummingway]

Yesterday there was a great deal of emotion here because of the deaths of four sailors and some leeway was allowed on posting but it is a new day and I would like to remind you all that we are a cruising and sailing forum. Please make an effort to stay on topic. Read what you've written before submiting and ask yourself if it is appropriate for the topic and within the posting rules at Cruisers Forum. If you feel a little hazy on the rules you can always find the link to them in the menu bar at the top of the page.

Thanks,
Greg.

[kenny chaos]

Originally Posted by hummingway

The bibles might have been why these people were where they were but the other folks in the flotilla, for our purposes, didn't have a better or worse reason to transit the Suez.

10 points for that.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by hummingway

?....the other folks in the flotilla, for our purposes, didn't have a better or worse reason to transit the Suez.

I don't think they were in a flotilla. Though I'm not sure that would've been a deciding factor.

The story doesn't quite add up though. I can't imagine why the pirates would have killed them with a warship floating 600 meters away given that the only thing between themselves and oblivion were their hostages? Not to mention that their business is ransom and proof of life is key to collecting the money. It sounds to me as though there was some kind of failed rescue attempt. But that is pure speculation on my part.

As sad as the outcome is, I'm glad that they've nabbed the pirates and I think it's commendable that the navy didn't just blow the bastards out of the water. I hope the subsequent trial will focus awareness upon this issue and lead to a concerted effort to eradicate piracy in this area. They've now got the best navy in the world breathing down their backs. That can't be too good for business...