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Old 12-10-2010, 22:22   #106
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
- - If you are really set on getting to the Med from the Indian Ocean and you have the finances, the safest way is to ship your boat on a container ship and fly to meet it at the first appropriate port in the Med. WAG it at about US$20K but that is a lot cheaper than the US$1Mil as a hostage or having relatives collect your life insurance.
Might need to WAG it a bit higher! Dockwise quoted $105,000 USD to ship our 16 mtr boat from Indian Ocean to the Med.

(to Mark: We understand your warnings and do not plan on going with a large convoy off Yemen. Of course, our minds remain open and we continue to monitor the situation.)

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Old 13-10-2010, 03:01   #107
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India to the Mediterranean via cape Town?

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what it would take to go from the tip of India to the Mediterranean via Cape Town?

A quick look at my globe suggest that India to Cape Town would be about the same as India to the Suez Canal, with the trip up the coast of Africa to Gibraltar being about 3600nm.

Allowing for delays going through the Gulf of Aden the Red Sea and the Suez Canal it looks like at least an additional month would be needed assuming a speed of 100nm. per day.

On the plus side Madagascar and South Africa could be visited, and the wind and currents may permit going via Brazil (only a few more weeks...).

It would certainly test out the blue water capabilities of any boat, and the weather may favour doing the southern hemisphere component during summer.

Would it be that bad?
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Old 13-10-2010, 03:25   #108
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what it would take to go from the tip of India to the Mediterranean via Cape Town?

Would it be that bad?
'Tip of India' is an interesting point because many people leave Thailand and go to the Maldives.
from the Maldvies you can go either up to the Gulf of Aden or down to South Africa.
I think theres a bit of a timing hassel in that lots of people like Thailand for New Years Eve... they let off these hot air lanterns - you light a cnadle inside and send them up - theres HUNDREDS in the sky at once. (bad photo below, but all those dots are lanterns like we are trying to light.)

But New Year in Thailand then heading to South Africa means that you gotta travel fast to be around the Cape before autumn... or slow...
But with the Seychells now out of action because of Piracy theres less stopping places so maybe time to fit it all in...?
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Old 13-10-2010, 03:28   #109
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what it would take to go from the tip of India to the Mediterranean via Cape Town?

A quick look at my globe suggest that India to Cape Town would be about the same as India to the Suez Canal, with the trip up the coast of Africa to Gibraltar being about 3600nm.

Allowing for delays going through the Gulf of Aden the Red Sea and the Suez Canal it looks like at least an additional month would be needed assuming a speed of 100nm. per day.

On the plus side Madagascar and South Africa could be visited, and the wind and currents may permit going via Brazil (only a few more weeks...).

It would certainly test out the blue water capabilities of any boat, and the weather may favour doing the southern hemisphere component during summer.

Would it be that bad?
I was looking at maps and thinking the same thing. Looks like a pleasant trip if East to West. It's important to remember that the Cape of Good Hope is only about 34 degrees; it's not at all an extreme latitude like the dreaded Horn, which is at something like 55.
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Old 13-10-2010, 03:59   #110
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People have normally decided many years earlier: 2 or 3 years, but some friends came though as a group left Panama 7 years ealier and they all knew they were going up the red sea. They all had been criusing for a few years before that.
So there were quite a few folks who we met cruisng in Asia that had been criusing since before 9/11. Surprisingly some of those people just did not understand how the world has changed. Remember, current affairs is not as well deseminated onto boats.

Its very, very difficult for perceptions to change that the Cape of Storms could be (more or less) a safe sail! I grew up thinking it was death at sea! But now we know its routinely done by teenagers (not being controversial!) and its only 34 deg south, the perception is changing.

Many who decide years before to do South Africa leave directly from Darwin or Bali, and dont do Thailand at all.
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Old 13-10-2010, 05:30   #111
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Might need to WAG it a bit higher! Dockwise quoted $105,000 USD to ship our 16 mtr boat from Indian Ocean to the Med. . .
Judy
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Did you notice that I specifically said "container ship." Dockwise Transport (DWT) is the most expensive way to ship a boat anywhere. They are the "premium" (you might say "first class" price-wise) outfit. And I suspect the "insurance" they have to pay for transiting the area is quite high and spread over a smaller amount of revenue cargo. It might be that (?) they are routing east all the way around the world versus the western route since they do considerable S.Pacific to North America business which might account for the high rates. The size boat you mentioned is about the same as mine and DWT quoted me US$40K for Carib to Med a couple of years ago.
- - Container ships routinely ship boats for the cost of the container spaces you use. It is a much more complicated process than DWT as it also involves contracting for a cradle, mast down prep and delivery to the dock at both ends. But the price is considerably lower. It is common for the large racing sailboats and other boat manufacturers to ship via container ships as they already have cradles and know the procedures.
- - The other alternative that is in between the two cost wise is "deck cargo" such as Peter and Mays and other brokers arrange. These are smaller ships that have cargo holds and clear decks. Your boat is placed on deck, mast up, by a crane and lashed down. You might have seen that famous YouTube of the crane dropping the powerboat bow first into the water when a sling broke.
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Old 13-10-2010, 05:45   #112
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From the tip of India to the Maldives, then Mauritius, Reunion, possibly the bottom of Madagascar, then Richards Bay or Durban. I've got no idea of sailing conditions on this route, I just know plenty do it.

Mauritius and Reunion are popular holiday destinations from South Africa. Mauritius has an unusual industry. They make the most authentic, beautifully crafted sailing ship models. Not the cheap and tacky mass productions from Asia, but detailed, hand made treasures.
They used to be quite reasonably priced, but the corporate world has discovered them and they now grace boardrooms and expensive restaurants. I saw one in the entrance to a restaurant in Durban that would have been 6ft long and probably the same height.
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Old 13-10-2010, 13:26   #113
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with the trip up the coast of Africa to Gibraltar being about 3600nm.
Yes if you have a shedload of diesel. and like fighting headwinds and currents all the way up.

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Old 14-10-2010, 04:40   #114
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Did you notice that I specifically said "container ship." Dockwise Transport (DWT) is the most expensive way to ship a boat anywhere. .......
Yes, I saw that you said container ship. The catamaran berthed next to us in Singapore in August was being prepared to be shipped to the Med atop a container ship. Required having a cradle installed on the container ship's deck and having padeyes welded onto the deck to tie down the cat. Getting this done was wearing out the delivery captain who was handling everything for the absentee owner. Nothing went right or on schedule. When we left Singapore, the job still had not been completed and the captain had been dealing with this job for 5 weeks at that time. The tab was running up pretty quickly.

I am fairly sure our insurance company would scream about such an arrangement atop a container ship. But we would not subject our boat to those conditions anyway. If it were to be shipped, it would be Dockwise or some similar drive on/drive off shipping company. BTW, I also got a quote going the other direction from Brisbane to Ensenada, Mexico (I think that was the port in Mexico; it was on the Pacific coast). They wanted $48,000 USD for that route.

We decided to sail it around instead.

Judy
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:47   #115
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There are three different types of commercial ships that can and do transport small vessels (versus mega-yachts) across the seas. Dockwise Transport is the "premier" mainly because of the simplicity of the "drive on/off" feature. But they also use divers to position and weld "stands" to hold the vessel when the ship pumps out the water/refloats. There have been a few reports of sloppy work and damage to private vessels who use the DWT system. Since the DWT system is fundamentally the easiest for the customer, they can charge ever increasing fees as power yachts and other well-off boating folks suck up the available spaces. Also DWT used to offer significant discounts for booking 6 months ahead and paying at that time rather than waiting until the last minute. They also have "standby" rates where you have to wait until actual loading day to see if there are "no-show" boats.
- - Also I noticed after getting a few quotes from DWT over the years and comparing them to quotes received by fellow boaters with smaller boats - that, DWT seems to almost double the rates if your vessel is 50 ft or bigger.
- - The second way to ship a vessel is deck cargo on commercial ships that take bulk cargo in their holds. These days these type ships are also taking a few containers in what I would call "juri-rigged" containers lock-down systems. I have seen some where they only use chains over the containers and no lock-downs as they try to keep them onboard. These type ships lose containers overboard more frequently than full size dedicated container ships especially since the ship was not designed to have that much weight high up on deck. There are several "agents/brokers" in Europe and the Caribbean who specialize in leasing the available deck space for "mast-up" shipment. These type operations charge about 1/4 to 1/3 less than DWT.
- - Finally, there are the "big" commercial container ships that are dedicated to containers only. They do not have open deck space as everything above decks is a "jungle-gym" of container supports/lock-downs. Unless you have a pseudo-container "cradle" like the big manufacturers of boats already have, you have to have somebody make a "cradle" that envelopes your vessel and has the properly positioned "lock-down" system to engage the permanently built superstructure where the containers are stored on these large container vessels. At large container ports like Miami you can watch them lift and load various size vessels onto the ship.
- - The giant container ships are loaded with containers as normal except they leave an open/empty set of container spaces on the top center of the whole system of stacks. The open space is where they put the cradled vessels. These cradles are a skeleton of a real container and the only thing holding your vessel in place is the normal system of container lock-downs. The same crane system that loads the normal containers lifts and places your vessel in its pseudo-container "cradle" into position.
- - As I said this system is the least expensive and the most trouble and hassles as you or your manager must arrange for de-rigging your boat and having the proper pseudo-container "cradle" built to specs of the container ship. Then a different outfit must be contracted to transport your "container-cradled" vessel from the boat yard to the container ship pier where your vessel is handled just like a normal somewhat over-sized container. No modifications are made to the actual container ship.
- - Because of the complicated procedures needed to utilize large container ships and the hassles of arranging everything, DWT can charge even higher rates. DWT's rates when they started were quite reasonable and less than half of what they charge now. DWT has the better "mousetrap" so to speak, and their rates reflect this. And I suspect over the years of more and more success they really would prefer to not deal with the "little guys" anymore since they can fill the ships with the rich boy's toys.
- - Basically they are pricing small boats out of being able to use them and we are left to "get there" on our own keel. Hiring mercenaries or a small country's armed naval vessel to escort you is competitive with DWT. I have read in the mega-yachting magazines of several mega-yachts hiring the Thai or other small countries naval gun-boats to escort them to the Red Sea. A growth industry?
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Old 14-10-2010, 07:44   #116
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- - Basically they are pricing small boats out of being able to use them and we are left to "get there" on our own keel. Hiring mercenaries or a small country's armed naval vessel to escort you is competitive with DWT. I have read in the mega-yachting magazines of several mega-yachts hiring the Thai or other small countries naval gun-boats to escort them to the Red Sea. A growth industry?
I believe that it might be possible and legal -- all joking aside -- to arm a larger cruising sailboat. As I understand the UK laws, you can carry whatever weapons you want to on a UK flagged vessel as long as you don't enter UK waters with them on board. I would think you could buy or maybe even rent heavier weapons like a 50 caliber machine gun, which aren't even that expensive to begin with. I bet the Israelis would be glad to sell them to you. Then hire a couple of ex Green Berets to go with you through the tough part.

One boat armed like that could protect a whole convoy; the cost could be split. Agree ahead of time with a legitimate arms dealer on the other side to buy your weapons at a steep discount and take them off before you enter the next port. Or just throw them overboard. Or sell or give them to cruisers coming the other way.

A couple of ex Green Berets could have a nice business hiring themselves out together with their own weapons. No need for a whole gunboat.


Or you can just hire these guys:

Hired guns secure ships, stir controversy | Muse Pro Group

It's a Ukrainian company which, cleverly, uses specially trained and armed Yemeni coast guards. One transit costs $25,000. Split between ten yachts that seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Old 14-10-2010, 08:25   #117
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I like that 50 cal machine gun on the foredeck idea. Besides thwarting pirates it makes fishing while underway a lot more productive. See below:
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Old 14-10-2010, 13:53   #118
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i agree with you 100%

i was thinking the same thing there are self protection paintball's that are filled with some nasty stuff same as regular paintballs if you can freeze them fast they dont stretch and that is like shooting a pall bearing out of a cannon. all of my paintball guns shoot upwards of 15 balls per second its a pretty intimidating thing seeing these balls flying at you hahaha.

i was also thinking the exact same thing as the marlin rifles there inexpensive you pick them up some were cheap you have them for protection and you dump them over the side when you are out of the trouble areas.

also illegal but a couple of M80 fireworks thrown in there boat will sure cause some fuss.

I like the idea of the false rifles..but I wouldn't go there...some folks who are desperate don't bluff well..

85 parts gas, 14 parts eggs and 1 part salt in a glass jar makes pretty good napalm..ditto laundry detergent and gas...

as a pretty close to last ditch effort..a 12 gauge flare to the chest at point blank range is gonna ruin someone's day.

Spear gun likewise...

those are last ditch efforts..

Personally...I would not go there unarmed..but then, my entire career has been blowing up other peoples toys with very expensive hardware..

If I were going through there, I'd have a minimum of 2 marlin papoose .22 rifles,
1 small frame glock .40, and a lightweight easily concealable single shot 7mm or larger rifle..the purpose being to reach farther than the Kalishikov...or the Paki knockoff version...
Sooo..I doubt I'll ever go there..I have had quite enough of that part of the world in the last 20 years...

Oh..there is a such thing as oleoresin capsaicin .68 caliber paintballs...one in the vicinity of a headshot...WILL stop 99% of the human population..don't ask me why I know this. And a .68 automag paintball gun..a good shooter can get 8 balls a second in the air...nice.

And yes..Capetown is nice.[/QUOTE]
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Old 14-10-2010, 14:16   #119
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a little bit about me. i am 18 years old i grew up around boats but do not have to much experience on them.
i am currently finishing up college and will with any luck be enlisting in the coastguard and be off to basic training by the end of December!

Samson- Those quotes are from your Meets and Greets today. Here you have "spent a career blowing up toys wit very expensive hardware." You've also had "enough of that part of the world for the last 20 years".

Which is it? Pleased to meet you...hope you guessed my name-Rolling Stones
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Old 14-10-2010, 16:24   #120
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i am currently finishing up college and will with any luck be enlisting in the coastguard and be off to basic training by the end of December!

Samson- Those quotes are from your Meets and Greets today. Here you have "spent a career blowing up toys wit very expensive hardware." You've also had "enough of that part of the world for the last 20 years".

Which is it? Pleased to meet you...hope you guessed my name-Rolling Stones
MMMMmmm... interesting!... think I'll put my feet up, knock the top off the flagon, and watch this one develop. Love it when a couple of noobies climb into the ring
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