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Old 17-05-2011, 16:41   #31
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

Dennisail - My advice having done the Pacific crossing in 2008 is to take note of what MarkJ has written he is usually spot on. I would caution only that Mark did it on probably the smallest budget and I would have added extra power like Solar which he did further on. CF posters tend to have a bias against modern boats but they are much cheaper to maintain and the big one for you is this. Boats over twenty years old are much harder to sell here in Aus. Not sure about USA but this was relayed to me by a number of brokers who's business is to sell boats. The argument about insurance is silly I advise to get insurance that boat is a big investment whether $50000 or $200000 and you cannot always rely on your ability when others may not be as skilled, accidents happen. What Mark said about 10 vs 5 year old charter boats is correct they are usually around 5 and at that age should not need a rerig but close inspection is required. Older boats more than likely will need a rerig charter or not. You can easily cross the Pacific in a year with lots of long stops to enjoy the passage, very important. As was said if you are not going to keep the boat long term buy the boat with resale as a primary point not what you would like to live on permanently not that a Ben/Bav/Jen is not a great boat to do just that. Good luck!
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Old 17-05-2011, 16:48   #32
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

Just a point on engine hours as was written above Diesels will live a lot longer than most realise. 1 make sure the thermostat is fully functional not stuck open causing the engine to run cold they are designed to fail in the open position. 2 Change engine oil regularly and I mean regularly including the filter and use a monograde diesel oil forget the long life stuff. 3 get the injectors serviced before you leave this applies to any boat but especially ex charter as they do long hours in neutral charging batteries
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Old 18-05-2011, 03:14   #33
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'DAy Dennis,

Lots of divergent opinions above... here are a couple of additional comments:

Lots of folks make your proposed passages within a one year time frame. Including within that time the purchase and fitting-out of the boat makes it considerably more difficult. This process will very likely take far longer than you expect, and this starts putting lots of pressure on your schedule. Tight schedules kill yotties... or at least make what you intend as a cruise become a delivery trip where the sked trumps any opportunities to enjoy yourselves.

So, first of all, your desire to purchase a boat in near turn-key condition means to me that you should not settle on any specific design ahead of time. Being too "picky" will reduce the number of candidate boats markedly. Second, especially considering your proposed departure season, buying a boat from a northern origin isn't a good idea... the farther south the better. Third, with the time constraints, a west coast departure removes a lot of miles as well as the Canal transit (which can add a surprising number of days to your trip). All of these factors suggest to me looking primarily in the southern California market, with the possibility of adding the SF bay area.

February is still winter there, but with a bit of effort one can usually find an escape window. On both of our trips to the Marquesas we departed from Cabo in early April, and had 19 and 21 day passages to those lovely isles. From there there are many places one might wish to visit. We had stops in the Tuamotos, Societies, Cooks, Niue, and Tonga, arriving in Auckland in late November. It would have added a few days at sea to make Brissie our destination. Oh... the advice to leave in October for this voyage is IMO dead wrong: that would put you traversing the South Pacific during cyclone season with its obvious hazards.

Now, it is obvious that you won't have time to stop and explore all the island groups that you will encounter along your route. They all have their attractions... what to do? One approach would be to spend more time in the areas that are harder to get to from Oz -- the ones thus less likely to be returned to in future trips. This would likely mean more time in the Marquesas (Ann and my favorites in FP) and the societies, and less in Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu and New Cal, all of which are sorta reasonable voyages from Oz (Tonga stretches that a bit!). Anyhow, this sort of planning might suit you.

And finally, don't obsess too much about the rigging issue. Replacing the wires isn't all that expensive or time consuming, especially if you do it yourself.

Cheers and good luck with this voyage
Thanks Jim. There sure are plenty of opinions. I'm not sure why some people need to get all emo about it though.

We might miss out on a few places but as point out new cal and Fiji are doable again from Brisbane later on should we keep the boat. How much would you say it would cost to re rig a 40 foot boat when doing it yourself? Might this be a lot cheaper in the US where everything seems to be so much cheaper than Aus?
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Old 18-05-2011, 03:37   #34
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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Enough to get me from the Caribbean to Australia.

We bought 6 extra diesel gerry cans in Panama but could have actually done it without them, but they were nice to have.

Even on a 10 year old boat I would be inspecting rigging prolly not replacing - though I lost my forestay in the last few days of the Atlantic, but remember I had done 30,000 miles on top of the ex-charter.

Extra sails. what for? You rip one sail and you patch the damn thing up. I use sail tape and contact glue. My genoa is still Sunsail red so its done me 30,000 miles. My mainsail did well over 20,000 miles. I had bought a new one in Thailand so the old one got me far past Australia (and it had UV damage when we bought the boat).

Power generation: alternator. 2 hours per day anchored will give you a fridge, 3 hours at sea where we didnt use a fridge.

Electronics: all charter boats have a full electronics pac. Buy a chip for the Pacific.

Remember, that an ex-charter boat was doing one week long independent charters in trade winds conditions untill a month or 2 before they were bought by people like me.

So look at that: 1 week independent cruising. So Caribbean to panama = 1 week
Panama - Galapagos = 10 days (2 charter weeks)
Galapagos - Marquesas 3 charter weeks
Marquesas/French Polynesia - Tonga 1 charter week.
Tonga - Sydney 2 charter weeks.

So your boat only has to sail for 9 charter weeks.
Down wind in prolly the most benign ocean in the world (in the right season)

Its just not that difficult

You sure as hell don't need a Halberg Rassy or a Swan etc. I would go for the boat that can be most valuable at the end of the trip.
Thanks Mark. I value your opinion on the use of a prod boat since you have actually done it. So how much tankage did your boat come with? I can't really compare "enough to get me from point a to point b" with other boats when trying to gauge if there will be enough I do recall you running out of water in one of your blogs on the long Pacific crossing?

You say 3 hours running the engine a day for power. I take it you done this as your engine was the only power generation you had at that time. Once again this relates to diesel use and questions like, how much does it use per hour, and how big are your fuel tanks? We had an engine failure when we crossed the bass strait and it was not good to have no power! We had one small panel though to get us by. Also our auto pilot died. Do you have a spare?

Also the fact you broke forestay is quite worrying to me. But you gloss over it like rigging failing is no big deal? How hold was your boat when you purchased it? And how old was the forestay when it let go? Have you replaced more rigging since?

What did you do for a dingy and where how you store it?

Have you ever actually needed to repair a major rip in one of your sails with your tape and glue? I have been on a boat where a sail has ripped right in half in th Bass Strait. I am not sure if tape and glue would have fixed it. We had a spare sail and used that. The sail was very old though.

I like your cruising itinerary and times. Over all I am growing on the prod boat idea so thanks for the input. I have been reading your blogs and have used your success as a pro prod boat argument for a while now.
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Old 18-05-2011, 03:46   #35
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Dennisail - My advice having done the Pacific crossing in 2008 is to take note of what MarkJ has written he is usually spot on. I would caution only that Mark did it on probably the smallest budget and I would have added extra power like Solar which he did further on. CF posters tend to have a bias against modern boats but they are much cheaper to maintain and the big one for you is this. Boats over twenty years old are much harder to sell here in Aus. Not sure about USA but this was relayed to me by a number of brokers who's business is to sell boats. The argument about insurance is silly I advise to get insurance that boat is a big investment whether $50000 or $200000 and you cannot always rely on your ability when others may not be as skilled, accidents happen. What Mark said about 10 vs 5 year old charter boats is correct they are usually around 5 and at that age should not need a rerig but close inspection is required. Older boats more than likely will need a rerig charter or not. You can easily cross the Pacific in a year with lots of long stops to enjoy the passage, very important. As was said if you are not going to keep the boat long term buy the boat with resale as a primary point not what you would like to live on permanently not that a Ben/Bav/Jen is not a great boat to do just that. Good luck!
You are spot on about insurance. Thats why I mention the 10 year rigging thing. As far as I know you will not be covered if your rigging is over 10 years old. I would like to be proved wrong about this though! My shipwright mate also told me after 10 years there is no real way of being sure it is still good by inspections.

Re the diesel engines. I do get worried at the hours in some charter boats. From what I have been told 5000h is about the limit of reliability for most diesel engines. Sure they can last longer but many don't even get to 5000. It would all come down to how well they have been serviced but that is an unknown in a used boat. Could a diesel mechanic tell if the engine seems to have been looked after? Do you think it might be worth getting it looked at specifically if it has high engine hours?
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Old 18-05-2011, 06:08   #36
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

First I would strongly disagree with the 5000hrs this is another mith. In what area do they become unreliable? Yes you are not always aware of previous care but this next statement will probably get the keyboards working. When it comes to basic engine maintenance which is all the average charter boat should need when you look at there age they are probably better cared for than most private owners would care for there boats. Its a bit like buying an ex rental car in Australia lots of stories but little real fact. Again usually in better all round condition than the average private car of the same age, regularly inspected, cleaned, washed, tyres checked and did I mention cleaned and washed.
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Old 18-05-2011, 07:36   #37
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
So how much tankage did your boat come with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisail View Post

I do recall you running out of water in one of your blogs on the long Pacific crossing?

engine was the only power generation you had at that time. Once again this relates to diesel use and questions like, how much does it use per hour,

Also the fact you broke forestay is quite worrying to me. But you gloss over it like rigging failing is no big deal?


What did you do for a dingy and where how you store it?

Have you ever actually needed to repair a major rip in one of your sails with your tape and glue?

Quick answers:
Tankage: 38 Gals = 160 liters
Water 440 liters. Needed to get more water in Marquesas illegally (long story) and French cops wanting me to come into the police station, but we zipped off into International waters fast
Water usage is far better now as salt water now plumbed into sink and we use spray bottle to wash ourselves etc.
440 Liters now last 2 months.
Engine 1 liter per hour at charging rate of 1,200 RPMs on a Yanmar J4H3E 56HP
Forestay broke at 10 years old after 30,000 miles of my own. So the 10 year rule is probably a goodie. Cost $700 US
Dinghy was a fold up in lazarette or tied to deck. Now is a 9'5" hard bottom lashed to foredeck
All rips in sails have been small and glue/tape works well.


Now, in general. I didn't want it to be a production boats are better type answer. What I intended was a "Keep your mind open and don't believe bullshit" type post.

It gets back to you personally and what you wish to do with the year cruising:
1. Are you running a boat back fast to Aus to sell?
2. Running it back home fast to own for ever?
3. Taking precious time from work to have the best cruising holiday possible?
4. Other?
Each will mean a different approach that only YOU can decide.
For example, if its a once in a lifetime holiday your family wants you might decide to go cheap on the cruiser crap but buy 2 expensive cameras, SLR and underwater for the Galapagos etc etc maybe even SCUBA gear but not solar panels etc.

Some folks spend $6,000 on HR radio (5% of the value of the boat!) where you might like to spend that money in other ways.

Some may wish the years cruise to be the most luxurious possible and want new bedding, new covers, extra fans, etc

All I am saying is that the boat part can be done very budget consciously, or extremely expensively.


Its up to you to define to yourself what you want and then set your ideas accordingly.

I hope this helps


Mark
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Old 18-05-2011, 11:45   #38
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
Thanks Jim. There sure are plenty of opinions. I'm not sure why some people need to get all emo about it though.

We might miss out on a few places but as point out new cal and Fiji are doable again from Brisbane later on should we keep the boat. How much would you say it would cost to re rig a 40 foot boat when doing it yourself? Might this be a lot cheaper in the US where everything seems to be so much cheaper than Aus?
G'Day Dennis,

Kinda hard to answer that one in any detail because even within a small range of OALs, the complexity of the rig varies considerably, and thus the cost of renewing things.

If you were lucky and the PO or builder had used mechanical terminals (Sta-lok, Norseman, etc), then one only needs to buy the wire, and it isn't all that dear, and a complete DIY job is practical. If the terminals are swaged and you don't want to go the extra expense of buying Sta-loks, etc, then you have to pay to have the swages done. You can still DIY by removing one wire at a time,taking it off to the rigger's shop, having the ends swaged on, returning and reinstalling. A bit of a pita, but economical and educational.

As far as pricing, I don't have access to catalogs just now, but I'm reasonably sure that your thoughts about materials being cheaper here in the States is spot on, especially with the AUD being so high just now. (I have noticed that this currency mismatch does not seem to have been reflected in prices at Whitworths, etc!!).

Anyhow, sounds like you are zeroing in on a workable plan. Carry on...

Cheers,
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Old 22-05-2011, 02:16   #39
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

Thanks for all the input guys. I appreciate it.

1. Are you running a boat back fast to Aus to sell? 2. Running it back home fast to own for ever? Resale is important should we sell the boat when we finish our cruise. We want to get back in one year because that is the time we have available. 2 years would be better. If we love living on the boat for that time we may continue to keep the boat and live on it at Manly. However that would only be if we can figure out a way to continue cruising in the next couple of years or so. Nikki would be happy to live on a boat but I prefer to live in a house UNLESS we are using the boat to cruise on.

3. Taking precious time from work to have the best cruising holiday possible? Thats pretty much spot on mate. This time represents 13 years of long service leave (6 months) and I will have to take 6 months no pay. But they might not give me leave with no pay in which case I will have no job when I return.

I do not want to do this expensively, I do want to do it safely. The concept of "safely" is what I am having trouble coming to my own conclusion to, given the varying opinions on what is regarded as safe (boat choice and equipment).

Boatman. That Sun Odyssey 40 looks great and I appreciate the gear it has on board.

We just went to the Sanctuary Cove international boat show. I am not sure if these current model boats are anything to go by when comparing 10 year old boats but we liked the apparent interior quality and cockpits of the Bavarias when compared to Ben and Jen.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

BVI Yacht Sales Ltd.
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Old 22-05-2011, 03:44   #40
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

We just went to the Sanctuary Cove international boat show. I am not sure if these current model boats are anything to go by when comparing 10 year old boats but we liked the apparent interior quality and cockpits of the Bavarias when compared to Ben and Jen.
Probably not a good question to ask as the answers will probably confuse you more. We also went to the show and were happy with most we looked at and like you and everyone else looking to buy a boat it is more what is important to you. As for safety they are all safe if used as they were designed to be used. None will sink if sailed safely like any boat old or new. Yes some will try to tell you that he has a friend who knows another guy who bought make A and it had massive problems. Pick a boat and take a week in the Whitsundays and charter one nothing beats first hand knowledge, if you are happy with the layout, sailing performance etc then your own boat can only be better as you will fit it out to suite your needs.
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Old 22-05-2011, 05:14   #41
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

I've been on a number of new Bavaria's at boat shows over the past couple of years, both on the current Bruce Farr designed and the older designs. Compared to the Beneteaus's & Jeanneau's on display, the Bavaria's interior fit out looked and felt very cheap, but that was fair enough as they were the cheapest boats of their size on display. There was one 32 (Farr) I saw that had the most awful floor in the cabin. At first I thought it was a protective layer for the show, but it was the basic standard floor.

I have also chartered a 2/3 yo Bavaria and inspected a couple of 8/10 year old Bavaria's and their internal fit out was much better than the new boats I inspected.

I suspect that Bavaria put on display their most basic boats so they can display a low initial purchase price, whilst the older boats I went on had probably had a few extras from the option lists to give a better feel.

I would bet that because of the high costs of shipping boats to Australia, Bavaria know they cannot offer such a stripped down basic boat as they do over here, so they are probably better speced base boats in Oz.

Simply put, new boats don't give a true representation of 10 year old boats especially when comparing different market places.

When I was looking, I found that looking at new boats caused more confusion making the decision process harder. On the other hand visiting marina's and looking (from the dock) at boats helped a great deal. For starters it helped me focus on the deck fitting and lay out and gave me a chance to better imagine what it might be like to be on board. Initially I was thinking of a pre-2000 Sun Odyssey 37, I looked at many photos but it was not until I was standing on the dock that I realised that the jib sheet winches were on the cabin top and there was nowhere to put extra winches in the cockpit. Of course going on board and sailing is better, but at least dockside viewing is better than photos
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Old 22-05-2011, 19:32   #42
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

Hi..
I'm a single hander doing the same trip you are planning
bought a cruiser in Canada and currently have the boat in San Fran.
I'm back in Brisbane for a visit.. and would like to chat..
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Old 22-05-2011, 19:53   #43
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

In Brissy..call me on 0402-918006
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Old 25-05-2011, 20:17   #44
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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I've been on a number of new Bavaria's at boat shows over the past couple of years, both on the current Bruce Farr designed and the older designs. Compared to the Beneteaus's & Jeanneau's on display, the Bavaria's interior fit out looked and felt very cheap, but that was fair enough as they were the cheapest boats of their size on display. There was one 32 (Farr) I saw that had the most awful floor in the cabin. At first I thought it was a protective layer for the show, but it was the basic standard floor.

I have also chartered a 2/3 yo Bavaria and inspected a couple of 8/10 year old Bavaria's and their internal fit out was much better than the new boats I inspected.

I suspect that Bavaria put on display their most basic boats so they can display a low initial purchase price, whilst the older boats I went on had probably had a few extras from the option lists to give a better feel.

I would bet that because of the high costs of shipping boats to Australia, Bavaria know they cannot offer such a stripped down basic boat as they do over here, so they are probably better speced base boats in Oz.

Simply put, new boats don't give a true representation of 10 year old boats especially when comparing different market places.

When I was looking, I found that looking at new boats caused more confusion making the decision process harder. On the other hand visiting marina's and looking (from the dock) at boats helped a great deal. For starters it helped me focus on the deck fitting and lay out and gave me a chance to better imagine what it might be like to be on board. Initially I was thinking of a pre-2000 Sun Odyssey 37, I looked at many photos but it was not until I was standing on the dock that I realised that the jib sheet winches were on the cabin top and there was nowhere to put extra winches in the cockpit. Of course going on board and sailing is better, but at least dockside viewing is better than photos
Thanks for the advice. I will look around the marina at Manly to get an idea of the exact models. I see you decided on the Sun Odyssey 40. That is my favorite boat in the BVI at this time. What were your opinions of this model when compared to a equiv bav and ben? Are you happy with its sailing performance? What about to windward?
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Old 25-05-2011, 20:20   #45
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Re: USA to Australia in One Year Starting February

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We just went to the Sanctuary Cove international boat show. I am not sure if these current model boats are anything to go by when comparing 10 year old boats but we liked the apparent interior quality and cockpits of the Bavarias when compared to Ben and Jen.
Probably not a good question to ask as the answers will probably confuse you more. We also went to the show and were happy with most we looked at and like you and everyone else looking to buy a boat it is more what is important to you. As for safety they are all safe if used as they were designed to be used. None will sink if sailed safely like any boat old or new. Yes some will try to tell you that he has a friend who knows another guy who bought make A and it had massive problems. Pick a boat and take a week in the Whitsundays and charter one nothing beats first hand knowledge, if you are happy with the layout, sailing performance etc then your own boat can only be better as you will fit it out to suite your needs.
I guess with so many of prod boats made there will always be someone who has stories of how bad one was. There will always be whingers and failures on neglected boats.
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