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Old 10-04-2015, 10:14   #61
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
After 5 months I think it fair to say they are no longer visitors or cruisers.

Comes a time when you get told to fook orf, in words or deeds.
Correct !
And whether a low profile was kept or not (which remains to be seen), after such a long time anybody is likely to attract attention.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:31   #62
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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Originally Posted by Claude_Marie View Post
I understood that a number of values by United Nations standards were universal, Human Rights (which inclose Women and Children rights).
Nations having a problem with said rights are welcome to withdraw from the U.N, anytime.

As for bigotry, it leads to fundamentalism which leads itself to extremism...you know what is the next step.

Else, should bigots get on very well with other bigots, that is nothing new.
I don't think regarding Fiji we were talking about basic Universal human values. He were talking about cultural different meanings namely in what regards appropriated code dress. I don't see the relevance with Universal Human Rights.

Fundamentalism born also from the incapacity of understanding and respecting others cultures. A fundamentalist assumes by definition that there is only a right way to look at reality (his) and that all others are wrong, even if he is living on a society that is not his own where the natives share different views about several aspects of reality, for instance, appropriated dress code.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:23   #63
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

We were in Savu Savu about 18 months ago and found evryone we dealt with very helpful. We cleared into the country there and as usual, Sandy's homemade choc chip cookies made the wheels of officialdom spin freely! Curly is an institution there, and while his name was mentioned in passing it doesn't seem like he took up their cause. As Ann says, we are short on details.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:29   #64
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Old 18-04-2015, 04:15   #65
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

Well, where does one start. We are in the same anchorage at the same time and know and like Marzia very much. Still, it seems to me that whilst my initial thought is to 'poo poo' the post, that it is indeed the single woman sailors who struggle in the anchorage and we need to take note of this!

The kids playing and swimming on the beach is fantastic !!!
Honestly, they are there with huge smiles and an incredibly friendly demeanour, but some sailors don't appreciate differing cultures and want, and expect, to be in foreign countries with the foreigners adapting to what they would call 'good manners'.

I really think the issues start here ... and once a person has shown rudeness or disregard the 'games begin'.
After all, these folks come from poor villages and I have been absolutely amazed at how happy and cheerful they are with so little in life ... jumping off a dock over ones dinghy whilst filling with water, for these kids is a friendly 'game' for them ... they do it with me ... I join in the fun and there is terrific laughter. After a moment or so, then one can ask them nicely to jump behind the dinghy rather ... do it respectfully and respect will certainly come back at you. Before long these same kids are there waiting to catch a line when brining the boat to the dock, or to help cart away the rubbish - you become a friend for life.
But, I would imagine that if one acts sternly or even gives a perception of being stern (and sorry dear op, but you do and perhaps not meaning to be so serious the perception is theres ... it comes with our varying cultures), then I guess the kids 'play up'.

It quite shocks me to read about kids exposing themselves and so on - of course this is totally unacceptable behaviour ... I never would have thought it in my wildest imagination for the people of Fiji, but then again I stand open in this issue since I am male and we sail as a couple.

In response to another female cruiser who had some negative opinion on Savusavu on Noonsite, I did mention the following:

Ana does feel however, that a woman alone is not necessarily respected by male Fijians. It is still a very traditional country where women are in the 'shadow of their husbands', the chiefs are male and it is a patriarchal society where a woman alone is not always understood. Unlike Polynesians where women are the driving force in society, here it is unusual in their eyes to be without a male companion. This is a developing and necessary change in Fijian culture. We have met many educated older Fijian women who have indicated the need for such change.

I guess we have the missionaries to blame for this?

One Fijian lady said to me recently that it is strange to her how all these sailors come along wanting to wear less and less clothing ... locals are now wearing clothes around the neck ... so ... western society told us back in the day its not cool to be running around naked, so we dressed. Now it is the woman from the same west trying to be naked while we remain dressed.

As for safety meetings and so on ... I get the distinct feeling (and I am not alone here), that many of these meetings are done by certain individuals who really are trying to entrench the notion that they are an 'establishment here in Savusavu' - I honestly in the short time spent here feel it is for their own business opportunities - this issue is not nearly as bad as what is being portrayed.
In fact, I still feel this to be one of the most pleasant anchorages to spend Cyclone season - one is in close proximity to many islands and the most stunning dive sites to be found - all within 1 days sail back to safety. Savusavu is a very safe and tranquil anchorage, I think the only disagreement I had with anyone here is an expat who thinks he controls the place, but as for the locals - I would describe them as friendly and as 'gentle a people' you will find anywhere.

However, let me not try to colour this any which way - I am merely a cruiser sailing around the world and have sought refuge here in Savusavu for a season (cyclone season) - another lady whose husband was away for some time overseas also experienced problems - her comments as well as my reply can be seen at Fiji, Vanua Levu, Savusavu: Local information and security update - March 2015 — Noonsite

Perhaps we as cruisers need to find out from the local folks how they really feel about this subject of 'woman alone', for otherwise if someone had shared this post with me I would have thought 'the lift does not entirely reach the top floor'.

Marzia - try a little friendliness and forget all the stuff we bring with us from our world - the joy in sailing is meeting people in their own cultures and not to change their culture - I am sure if we accept, appreciate and show an interest in these folks we would never have these sorts of experiences ... well ... it feels that way to me for all the places we have visited so far

The trick in staying over for cyclone season is in 'GETTING OUT THERE AND EXPLORING' ... attached is a little video of us on one day leaving the yacht at Savusavu and diving around Namena reef with Namena Divers, a very affordable experience and one of many, many terrific adventures!

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Old 18-04-2015, 05:25   #66
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Chill out a second please. In no way do I condone the young men's behavior, but, having spent quite a bit of time in Fiji, I would add this. The local culture is extremely patriarchal, and control of the young men rests with the chiefs. Now, many cruisers do not understand the whole practice of sevusevu, the Fijian ritual for travelers between different chiefdoms, and do not practice it themselves. If those cruisers who stay at the facility in Savusavu, would do sevusevu--the ritual gift of kava (yanggona)-- in the villages, if the chiefs accept them, they will also look after them. Otherwise, they feel done ill by and are resentful of the cash the marina makes, so there is little effort to control the young men, who, of course have to consent to be controlled. AFAIK, offfering the sevusevu is the only way to get the protection of the chief, and without it, the village does nothing whatsoever to help a cruiser.

I feel quite certain these incidents are due to foreigners' expectations of a "civilized" European environment, and what amounts to culture clash. Someone has paid money for a service, and expects respect, but without knowledge of the local dynamics.

If you do not conduct yourself as a similar age & gender person of the local culture, you are open for a lot of surprises. In both Fiji and Tonga, European females' dress standards are scandalous, and this has led to difficulties for the cruisers for years. The local men feel the women are "asking for it".

The US exportation of pornography to the islands has also caused some feeling like this: a blonde woman was raped in French Polynesia some years back, and the young man said, if "they'll have sex with a donkey, why not me?" So this kind of thinking is out there, too. Paradise lost through interaction with the West.

Each island is a little different, but if you teach yourself to consider the local chiefs as equivalents to the little kingships of the dark ages, you'll see they will require respect. If you do a little research, you can find out what kind of consideration you need to have for their culture to smooth the way. The responsibility here is of the visitor. You're not in North America nor the European Community any more!

Ann

on edit: I do not mean, in any way to be bashing MY LADY, this comment is based on years of learning and observing. I do not feel the Italians intentionally aggravated the locals. It is just culture clash and lack of respect for the profound differences between their culture and the local one.
Hi Ann,

I read your post with interest and totally agree with the 'culture clash' thing!

Interestingly enough we did do sevusevu with the local chief - we actually have done sevusevu on many islands now. However, Savusavu is not really a place expected to do sevusevu, and that from the chiefs own mouth. Still, the experience was great and it is a quick means to get to know everyone.

Interestingly enough, having engaged with a number of chiefs on the ceremony of sevusevu, most have been saying they do not really feel as strongly as they used to about this, some even tell us the tourism board encourages them to keep it going as it is interesting for tourists and so on. SO, not all chiefs feel as strongly. The MAIN THING as with anywhere else is to show respect and friendliness and not to try and change their culture. I guess sevusevu is a good way to start all that. Also, we found the chiefs do not expect special treatment from cruisers - these 'courses one pays for in Savusavu to learn about sevusevu and all that is required traditionally' is a laugh a minute - a huge money spinner for some individuals who do these seminars and are not even born Fijians for goodness sakes ... its all a lark!

Also, with regards to the 'dress code' which so many cruisers guides speak of and so on - we feel this is totally overstated. Poor Ana who loves wearing shorts and cool tops arrived in Fiji as we did on most other islands covered as a result of guides telling us to dress a certain way. We have now engaged with so many locals on this issue and one will be interested to find the majority of locals do not mind at all if one dresses in shorts and cool tops for example - when we show them what the cruising guides are suggesting they laugh. Of course one should dress appropriately but the islanders are more forgiving these days than most would have cruisers believe! We found we get the best results by just being normal people ... to engage with interest and eagerness to learn ... the chiefs love it that I just say 'I have no idea of your traditions, please tell me if I do something offensive and show me your ways'. Immediately there are smiles all around and we get so much more from them than these 'trained cruisers'.

Ana dresses as she would in any western society - one should just use ones head in this and dress as you would at home. i.e. if going to the village, dress in the casual way you would when going to your own village back home. We are tired of cruising guides stating all this nonsense about dress codes that are over the top! One of the locals in French Polynesia made us chuckle when we discussed it with him ... he said ' it is the older woman cruisers who do not want their husbands enjoying the pretty younger ones' I sometimes feel that is true

At the end of the day I think having a friendly demeanour - not showing oneself to be above any local - being interested in them and their culture - and some smiling goes a LONG way
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Old 18-04-2015, 08:07   #67
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

Impi - thank you for your very well put comments in your two posts above. Good advice.
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Old 18-04-2015, 09:56   #68
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Claude-Marie,

If the brackets were for "yanggona", that is kava roots, wrapped like a bouquet, which is what is best offered at sevusevu, rather than paper packets of powdered kava.

What I mean about civilized Europeans is that they exported missionaries in the middle of the 19th century, who taught the Pacific cultures to be "modest". They brought their own standards, and I really don't think they realized the deaths that would follow from the autochthones accepting them. Now, Europeans and Americans are pretty comfortable with women topless and in small bikinis, but that's not the standards the missionaries taught, and the locals accepted, and still adhere to.

Further, I meant that "civilized Europeans" will go into a marina, pay the fees, and have expectations that may be unmet in South Pacific cultures.

Most of the South Pacific did not have money (although certain trade objects could serve for it, red pods in the Solomons come to mind as part of bride price; and Yap had their amazing stone money)--it was mainly barter. If you read what the Tongan chiefs thought of the white man's desire to save things--a dangerous concept for society, basically--you'll see how revolutionary the West's concepts of property, and behavior were in the Pacific.

There are undoubtedly some French authors on the subject of the Iles Marquises, circa 1840 or so, which will help; I've been limited to mainly English writers.

For me, the problem has been to interface what I have learned of what came before to what is happening now. Fiji is extremely complex, IMO, but these little places are sort of microcosms of understanding what has come before and what will come, but that's just me trying to figure out stuff.

Ann
Ann,

I really appreciate your posts and the insight you have provided.

What bothers me from afar is that the OP comes across as Ego and Western centric.

In mentioning that the boat had been moored there for FIVE months, what are we supposed to take from that? The longer they are there, the better they should be treated??

It sounds like, the five months was mentioned because they expected squatter's rights?

Ann, I thought your explanations hit the nail on the head.

I've always thought that the pleasure of cruising is being able to pack up and go someplace else for whatever reason.

Maybe they should try the Med
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Old 18-04-2015, 10:22   #69
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

There are inconsiderate, ill-mannered, and plain unthinking people world over. Including here in the Colonies, with little reason to blame missionaries or Western European cultures for them.


Growing up, we were taught that if you want to listen to your new 4-transistor radio on the street, you'd damn well plug in the earphone that always came with it. Years later the term "ghettoblaster" was coined and these days there are ordinances against car stereos being turned up too high 'THUMP THUMP' in the middle of the night.


No missionaries or Fijians needed.


A lack of courtesy and discipline can be found, sadly, world-over. Of course in parts of Switzerland, if some boor spits his chewing gum on the sidewalk, everyone will stop and stare them down until they pick it up again. But in Singapore, you'll be arrested and caned for the same offense.


In the Colonies, we're just idiots who waste gobs of money steam-cleaning the stuff from the sidewalks. Hmmm....


I wonder where Savusavu fits on the chewing gum scale?
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Old 18-04-2015, 15:56   #70
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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In the Colonies, we're just idiots who waste gobs of money steam-cleaning the stuff from the sidewalks. Hmmm....
In the colonies, we also let everyone dress, worship, live as they see fit, unlike some other places,,

Sadly, it certainly doesn't work any better than the less tolerant places.

Maybe all of us are all just not understanding the problem.


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Old 18-04-2015, 17:03   #71
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

"In the colonies, we also let everyone dress, worship, live as they see fit,"
Do tell?
Ever hear or see "No shoes, no shirt, no service." ? Or lawsuits by Sikhs who are told they "must" remove their turbans? And don't even ask what happens to female visitors from the Med who might think they can go topless on any public beach.
America was founded by religious extremists (i.e. the Pilgrims) who were cast out of England. Then they promptly cast out their own members, who founded Connecticut. And cast out more of their kin, who founded Rhode Island.
Ever notice that Pledge of Allegiance and our currency both refer to "God" in the singular? No provision made for others, who might not worship Christ. Tolerance? Better than under the Czar, but still got a way to go.


And don't even ask what PETA would do, if I rendered up burnt offerings, the way the Bible suggests worshippers do. They get their knickers in a twist every time some Haitian priestess wants to sacrifice a goat. Still.
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Old 18-04-2015, 17:45   #72
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

On a bit of a lighter note, I had to smile this morning whilst over breakfast on Impi we chatted about this issue ...

Firstly, Ana was reminding me that it was in Italy she has been harassed mostly by men, and also in Italy some men (note the plural) pinched her bum ... but thats apparently 'par for the course' :non ono:
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Old 19-04-2015, 04:13   #73
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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America was founded by religious extremists (i.e. the Pilgrims) who were cast out of England. Then they promptly cast out their own members, who founded Connecticut. And cast out more of their kin, who founded Rhode Island.
Ever notice that Pledge of Allegiance and our currency both refer to "God" in the singular? No provision made for others, who might not worship Christ. Tolerance? Better than under the Czar, but still got a way to go.


And don't even ask what PETA would do, if I rendered up burnt offerings, the way the Bible suggests worshippers do.
[...]

.

OMG !!!



That sounds so anti- American, should you be one yourself, I cannot leave you get away with this, mate.

Just like you and I tried to explain (with little success, AFAIC) that the situation described had more to do with the "regular" anti social behaviour which seems to become normal worldwide (includes Southern Italy, I insist on southern), get ready to find worlwide the same socio-style of Pilgrims.

Nothing specific with Americans, just like Chavs bear similarities worldwide, the going strictly by the book people are to be found everywhere.
Whether you write Book (block letter intentionnal) or book has little if any importance.

Another common occurence, you will find that these people are difficult to discuss with, as they behave strictly according with the rules, call it local customs, ( by doing so they are extremely respectable) they believe nothing wrong can ever happen to them.

Therefore, when others find themselves in a situation, they have to have done something wrong.

Should someone lands himself/herself into trouble without having broken any written or un-written rule is just beyond their understanding.

That would be chalenging a whole system of values, again respectable in themselves.

From personal observations (on non American subjects) these people often display a low level of self esteem (making them prone to judge than others have an over developped Ego), and an extremely low level of self confidence, rules and complying with them are used as guide lines in life and are essential to their well being.
Often, same are extremely un at ease with their physical appearance, do not like the image of themselves reflected in the miror, or just don't like mirors at all, on the other side those who happen to be the exact opposite, at peace with their body with the social self confidence associated with it will be judged as being provocative.




.[/QUOTE]
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Old 19-04-2015, 07:14   #74
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ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claude_Marie View Post
Sorry Ann, I failed to answer your previous answer, my mistake.

As a matter of fact, I am checking this topic created by Dutch people (there is another one about .........


......

When abroad, as I do not know what legally applies, I shall observe the local code of practice and behave accordingly.
I have no problem, unless language issues get in the way to ask politely LEO about the do and dont, if something is not illegal, therefore it is permitted.
Period.
Culture just does not get into the equation.
Should I suffer from ........

Imperialist statements etc


...........omic migrants from Africa.
Italian coasties spend their time rescuing skiffs adrift, the Italian Red Cross feeds them, supply them with warm clothes.
"French Doctors" take care of the ills and wounded for free.
Should a hurricane, a typhoon, a cyclone or an earth quake strike we come (with other G20 countries of course) for help.
School destroyed, we rebuild, no food, we give.
It is HIGH time, the rest of the world reciprocate !!!!

As a European,this is most definitely not said in my name

Quote:
in days when REAL men still existed, any of them who would have witnessed these " Untermensch" behaviour would have talked some sense to this bunch of morrons in the form a of nice black eye, a couple of broken teeth and/or a number of broken bones should they insist.
Sadly, there are not many gentlemen to be found, these days.
Maybe this happens in the mills and boom novels you read. In real life in European women have be subjected to ritual and state sponsored abuse for generations.

I particulary object to the term " untermensch"


[QUOTE ]

Last, but not least, "We civilized Europeans" are raising our children in a way that they should not display the slightest form of prejudice regarding race, religion, colour, origin, social back ground AND gender or sexual orientation.
[/QUOTE]

Well given the rise in the last few years of specific right wing anti immigration political parties and the many youth supporters they have. We are not doing a great job raising these children

Quote:
We welcome the whole world from Syrian refugees to economic migrants from Africa.
Yes, and by introducing a complexity underfunded Trident border project and defunding the excellent mare nostrum project, we have allowed thousands to drown in the med.

Quote:
It is HIGH time, the rest of the world reciprocate !!!!
Given the damage the world experienced and continued to experience as a result of European imperialism and cultural brain washing , we are long long way from expecting reciprocation

Dave


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Old 19-04-2015, 08:17   #75
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Re: ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

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...

Yes, and by introducing a complexity underfunded Trident border project and defunding the excellent mare nostrum project, we have allowed thousands to drown in the med. ...
Well said in a day where more several hundred died drown in the Med. Only a Portuguese cargo rescued 300 from the water. On the last 3 month about a 1000 died trying to escape war and famine.

The Italians are doing a great job, one that we all should be proud off, but the lack of finance from the EU is a shame. They cannot have alone the financial burden of dealing with this tragedy, that's just unfair and not right.

"Maltese PM Joseph Muscat said rescuers were "literally trying to find people alive among the dead floating in the water". He put the number of survivors at 50.
Mr Muscat told the BBC: "What is happening now is of epic proportions. If Europe, if the global community continues to turn a blind eye... we will all be judged in the same way that history has judged Europe when it turned a blind eye to the genocide of this century and last century.""

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32371348
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