Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-11-2010, 18:32   #31
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,193
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
It must be my suspicious nature but when a boat takes an hour or hours (like the sunk Gozzard 44 that happened to be for sale) to sink I have this niggling thought in the back of my head. Hmm, I wonder..........

If a boat is properly fitted; the rig doesn't fall down, the keel doesn't fall off, the rudder doesn't float away, the sea cocks close, the hoses don't burst, the stuffing box stays stuffed and water stays out. Where does the water come from?

Just saying...
A bigga hole than he could keep stuffed with bedding, sails, towels, socks.... but lets assume that as most boats go down fast he had a damn good try at saving her.... doubt if he was mixing Margarita's
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	img004.jpg
Views:	125
Size:	408.7 KB
ID:	21253  
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 19:17   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Currently in South Haven Mi hopping to soon be in a warmer climite.
Boat: 17ft runabout my boat 2
Posts: 40
Send a message via Yahoo to gunslinger9729
Glad hes safe thats a bummer and bad luck is what it seems. That hose bursting is a bitch and if the seacock sticks you are done.
__________________

__________________
gunslinger9729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 19:25   #33
Registered User
 
Extemporaneous's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Boat: Corbin 39 Special Edition
Posts: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
I'm just giving the guy the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't as simple as turning a handle and letting the auto bilge pump do its thing.
Good call. I'll do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
I once broke off a through hull for the head intake. It made a nice arching column of water shoot into the air. Fortunately, I have bungs attached to each through hull, and I immediately steemed the flow of water into the yacht.
YIK's
Dave,
Out of curiosity, was this a proper closable hole i.e. the through hull was screwed into a sea-cock which was siting on top of a bearing pad and through bolted??

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiffyLube View Post
We just got our first hint at what the problem could have been, based on a question the owner of Aquila asked the FOGgers.

"Would one of you be so kind as to take a picture of the drive train from the cutlass housing forward to packing gland. I need a visual and a correct name for that 10cm length of hose surrounding the shaft that failed."
Oh Oh,
Might it have been a PSS Dripless Stuffing Box?? ?? !! !!
Dripless Stuffing Box Help
Regards,
Extemp.
__________________
Extemporaneous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 23:04   #34
Registered User
 
JiffyLube's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Boat: Islander Freeport 36
Posts: 567
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extemporaneous View Post
Good call. I'll do the same.

YIK's
Dave,
Out of curiosity, was this a proper closable hole i.e. the through hull was screwed into a sea-cock which was siting on top of a bearing pad and through bolted??


Oh Oh,
Might it have been a PSS Dripless Stuffing Box?? ?? !! !!
Dripless Stuffing Box Help
Regards,
Extemp.
Unless the owner of Aquila had changed his opinion of the PSS shaft seal, I would venture a guess that he didn't have one...but he could have had a Tides seal or something similar. Those types of seals also take a water line usually from the heat exchanger, to a metal nipple on the shaft seal.

We'll just have to wait a little longer to see where this leads to.
__________________
JiffyLube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 00:16   #35
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
This is all too sad. We last spoke with Mike here in Vuda Point Fiji a couple weeks ago when he was preparing to leave with some other boats for New Cal. We also spoke with him when everyone was looking for Aquila just after the Puddle Jump to Nuka Hiva.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 00:44   #36
Registered User
 
aegean adrift's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Turkey
Posts: 119
Hope he's physically ok, not too discouraged, and has some material options for moving forward.

Was the boat named for the sailmaker in the Bible?
__________________
aegean adrift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 01:06   #37
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Very sorry to hear about the loss and condolences. But I'm very curious to hear the weather details and where the boat was leaking. An hour is a long time to sink, you would think repairs could be made prior to loosing the boat.
When you are single handing and in the cockpit, it is possible take on enormous amounts of water before the engine or you realize that you are sinking. I once had my engine nearly completely submerged before I noticed that a raw water line had broken and thousands of gallons of water had filled my engine compartment and saloon.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 02:19   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,896
Makes me think about one of these.

Fast Flow Submersible Hydraulic Pumps, tank cleaning pump, HPU, Fast Flow, MS

My installation would look almost exactly like the one in the picture.
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 03:14   #39
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Makes me think about one of these.

Fast Flow Submersible Hydraulic Pumps, tank cleaning pump, HPU, Fast Flow, MS

My installation would look almost exactly like the one in the picture.
The problem comes when your raw water pump is the thing pumping water into your boat. You have to kill the engine to stop most of the inflow.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 11:40   #40
Registered User
 
JiffyLube's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Boat: Islander Freeport 36
Posts: 567
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trim50 View Post
The problem comes when your raw water pump is the thing pumping water into your boat. You have to kill the engine to stop most of the inflow.
I agree with you if the problem is surrounded around the engine. I think some kind of simple water height sensing alarm would be good to have, and it wouldn't be that hard to set up.
__________________
JiffyLube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 10:07   #41
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
This was posted on the PPJ this morning by Mike...

Aquila was a Robt. Perry designed Islander Freeport 36' sloop. Aquila sank Nov 12, 2010, 80 miles west of New Caledonia on route to Brisbane. The reasons of sinking are twofold, the catastrophic leak from the drive train, and a failed bilge pump. It is more than reasonable to conclude that if the bilge pump had worked, it would still have been unable to keep up with the leak. Is there an answer as to why this sinking occurred? I will leave it to your conjecture. It seems logical to conclude that it may have, indeed, been related to repair work completed 3 weeks before the sinking. Regarding my experience with Baobab Marine in Vuda Pt. Fiji, I have been encouraged by many to report the experience with contracting with Baobab Marine for various services and I shall, therefore, report a chronological series of events and allow others to consider this information when electing to hire this provider.
While visiting Fiji, I first contacted Baobab Marine and made an appointment to change the packing on the shaft gland of my yacht Aquila and to provide an estimate for a replacement motor for my Simpson Lawrence anchor windlass. While hauled out at Vuda pt. marina, a technician for Baobab showed up, viewed the prop shaft-packing gland and disappeared. I had to email them two days later to remind them to come back. They did replace the shaft packing for the fee equal to $112. USD. The labor crew manager, Lorenzo, then informed me that parts were no longer available for my windlass, but they could order and install a new anchor windlass for me. I went online and in 7 minutes was able to find and order any and all parts needed (they were not aftermarket, but Simpson Lawrence parts.). I fixed the windlass myself.
A bit later while cruising the Yasawa chain of islands, I fouled the prop with a ghost mooring line. My engine vibrated dramatically, so I returned to Vuda, hauled out and hired Baobab to repair the damage. Baobab is a Yanmar dealer and Aquila was powered with a Yanmar 4JH4. Lorenzo first believed the vibration to be a broken motor mount, but was unable to find a break, and suggested a bent prop shaft. It took a few days of labor to disassemble the drive train and get the shaft out, but the shaft proved true and not the problem. Lorenzo assured me that the cutlass bearing did not need replacing. They rechecked the motor mounts and now found a break in the port forward mount. I had now been on the hard for 5 days. They had to order the mounts and that took an additional 8 days. When the mounts arrived, they were the wrong size… They had to reorder and it took an additional 6 days to get the correct mounts. Remember here that they are Yanmar dealers and the 4JH4 is the ubiquitous Yanmar engine. Baobab did not and would not compensate me for any lay days in the yard. Time and money are nevertheless secondary to the expectations of professionalism and confidence in the quality and completeness of repair. I am lacking in experience in these kinds of repairs and had expectations that Baobab could, as of all that, they assured me.
The mounts were installed and I was finally put back into the water. While in the process of R&R the prop shaft, however, they disconnected/disabled the bilge pump. And in reassembling the drivetrain, a heavy leak developed in the 10cm length of hose coupling surrounding the shaft that exists between the cutlass bearing and the shaft-packing gland. The bilge and, therefore by design, the engine compartment flooded. I discovered this when the water had risen to the height just above the starting motor, but below the air intake and alternator. My secondary bilge pump could not keep up with the flow. A phone call to Baobab was immediately responded to and they brought an emergency bilge pump, but were unable to stop the leak. We had to haul out.
Michelle Philp, a director for Baobab and daughter of the owner of Vuda Pt. Marina, came to my boat and would not address the leak, but claimed they had nothing to do with the failed bilge pump. It became apparent to me and to the other marina visitors who heard, that she was trying to make me feel bad. She eventually said that Brian, the Baobab owner would come by and discuss the situation.
Brian came by and was very supportive in that he chastised and gave warning of termination to the mechanic responsible for disconnecting the bilge pump. Although no apologies were offered, neither were excuses. Brian assured me they would make it right. He did however say that the "buggered" piece of hose (his words) would not normally be inspected nor replaced. This remains to be unbelievable to me, as it had to be removed to get the shaft out of the cutlass bearing. Because this is such an essential link in the drive train, it should have been given critical inspection. This is confirmed by the very fact that it failed. They picked –up the haul-out fee, but not the layout yard fee. This fact, the money and time are only secondary to the very idea of their responsibility as professional mechanics to perform the very nature of their job. I also asked twice for the old motor mounts, which Lorenzo assured me they had, but they did not give them to me.
Baobab fixed (?) the bilge pump and replaced the 10cm section of hose with new hose and 4 hose clamps (2 on each side of the connection). I was put back in the water and Lorenzo came by to check off the work that was done. During his inspection, I reached down into the bilge to open the through-hull for my watermaker. It was then that I discovered three pieces of 2x4 that had fallen into and left behind in the bilge after stilting the engine for the engine mount change. I showed them to him with disgust. He could think of no reason to have left them behind, made no apologies nor excuses and then presented me with a bill for $1800 USD for labor and parts (4 motor mounts, 10 cm of hose, 6 hose clamps) for the repair. Dumbfounded, I tried to reason with him, but he knocked off only $100. The cost factor and the delays are secondary and insignificant to the subsequent loss of the yacht due to a total failure of Baobab to perform satisfactory repair work.
I left Vuda and headed to New Caledonia. I was in NC for a week and embarked under sail to Brisbane. I was out in the cockpit on watch at 2030hrs, 80 miles west of New Caledonia when I started hearing unfamiliar sounds. I looked down into the cabin and saw water up over the floor and the hatches floating and banging around. Not surprising to me anyway, there were two more pieces of 2x4 and one wooden wedge that floated up from the bilge. I immediately switched the manual bypass to the bilge pump, but it did not go on. I then systematically closed all the through-hulls, but the water continued to rise as I tried to start my secondary/emergency bilge pump. It, too, could not keep up with the flood. I then had to literally put my head underwater to reach the prop shaft and seals. It is here that I discovered only one of the four hose clamps remained on the infamous section of 10cm hose. I cannot offer any idea as to why 3 were now missing. Try as I did and with now 1 meter of water in the cabin, I could not secure a hose clamp to stop the leak. At this point I had to call a mayday. Five boats kept in radio contact as I used the hand pump in vain. S/V Azzar, a French Canadian registered yacht owned by Claude and Normande Gosselin arrived at my boat within 30 minutes and I then transferred to their boat while Aquila sunk below the surface.
What Baobab did should be considered criminal. Never once did they apologize or acknowledge the delays, their failures and subsequent flooding of the engine compartment, the carelessness of the 2x4's left behind, nor would they acknowledge responsibility for any work or lack of work they completed. Nor did they offer excuses; they just did not react to anything. Their behavior was rude and subhuman to a fault. Their arrogance and not-give-a-**** attitude is indicative of serious problems both in management and the professional pride of would-be skilled labor. They should be somehow held accountable, but I can offer no proof from a sunken boat, and hey "it's Fiji". Every single cruiser to Fiji should be warned of their behaviors. Something to keep in mind, my 3 month Fiji visit and observation concludes that frequent cruisers to Fiji from New Zealand and Australia rarely, if ever employ Baobab for anything. Baobab's business comes from Americans, Europeans and Canadians passing through. Choices in Vuda Pt. Marina are very limited and with both the nepotism and the exclusivity of approved vendors to the marina, options for cruisers are limited to a dismal conclusion.
I would like to thank and acknowledge S/V Argonaut from Seattle WA. and S/V Shangri La from France for remaining in radio contact and helping S/V Azzar to safely and calmly save my life.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 10:36   #42
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,577
Images: 240
Thanks for that update, Trim.
Michael Rafferty (captainraff) writes:
Yahoo! Groups
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 10:38   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Trim, they make bilge alarms.

Case in point, the yard launched us and failed to secure (screw down the cap) of the speedo, I looked at it but did not take the time to try screwing it down (MY FAULT). 300 miles from home, at three in the morning, sailing upwind through 12 footers the alarm went off. We started in the bow till we found the leak, the speedo had worked it's way out via the pounding we were taking and washed back. We could not find it so used a dc plug to stop the leak. We pumped the boat out and continued home.

I am very sorry to hear this man lost his boat but I am glad he is safe. I have learned to trust but verify any yard work. Chances are the packing was not tightened and the clmaps were not tightened.

Like I said earlier, the water comes from somewhere. Some lesson about trusting the yard are very harsh lessons to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trim50 View Post
When you are single handing and in the cockpit, it is possible take on enormous amounts of water before the engine or you realize that you are sinking. I once had my engine nearly completely submerged before I noticed that a raw water line had broken and thousands of gallons of water had filled my engine compartment and saloon.
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 10:45   #44
Registered User
 
S/V Illusion's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 1,693
This is indeed a(nother) sad story and our sympathy goers to the owner but it also demonstrates a very pointed lesson many of us already know. That is, never trust any yard to do anything. The captain should always take the time to learn and understand everything on his boat, regardless of how small, that can go wrong as it usually will. Had someone other than the yard inspected the packing gland hose and clamps or ensured at least one large bilge pump was working ( a no-brainer), it is likely this would never have happened.

I'm quite sure everyone here has a story about how a yard screwed up the simplest of jobs.

To say it another way, never trust you life to a yard monkey.
__________________
S/V Illusion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 10:58   #45
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Trim, they make bilge alarms.
You mean like this one I have installed shown in the picture?

Well, it is electric and relies on an electric float switch. Electric components on boats tend to fail more often than anything else on the boat especially when they are not used much...like an alarm. Yes I have one, but I would not count on it to work.

Soooo, do me the favor of banging your head on another thread.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bilge Alarm.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	205.8 KB
ID:	21363  
__________________

__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lost, New Caledonia

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good News / Bad News Alexei Monohull Sailboats 7 23-11-2009 03:09
Lost Thrust! Lost Prop? OffSeason Monohull Sailboats 20 07-06-2009 00:57
good news/bad news in Bradenton Beach salty_dog_68 Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 1 31-05-2008 23:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.