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Old 27-12-2016, 18:56   #1
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Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

The reason why I want to open this discussion is because this next year we want to get into a larger boat that we can do some chartering, but also good performance. My wife does not like to sail with me offshore because even in 10 knot winds she gets scared. So keep in mind I would like to at least single-hand sail at times when I cannot find a crew.

My mariner 40 has been a great boat for me and have sailed alone across the pacific through dead calm to 40 knot winds.
Being an old William Garden full keel design, it is a very forgiving sailor but even at 25 knot winds on a broad reach, I m lucky to get 7.5 knots out of it, of course that's not including surfing speeds.
Also my main issue with it is windward sailing which it does not like.

With that said, when I upsize to a larger boat, I would like it to be much better going to windward, but kind of leery of the modern sleds with wide sterns, and dual rudders to keep the helm in control.

Where is the happy medium of performance and sailing to weather, comfort, spacious interior, but not a slug either? Can a performance cruiser of 60' easily sail at 12-14 knots in good conditions?

So far I have been looking at 1980s Swan 54, French built Atlantic 60, Tayana 55, etc.

Or should I go crazy and get an old Maxi and convert it to a cruiser? considering all the cost of refitting a racer to a cruiser and is sailing a racing sled as a cruiser a bad Idea?

I know we all have our own opinions and I am ready to read them all so don't be shy.

Thanks
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Old 27-12-2016, 20:02   #2
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Hi Windrush,
I think you first need to prioritize whether this will be a business-lifestyle (charter) or a personal boat-getaway.

If Charter, consider who your primary customers will be, their interests (Speed over comfort) Racing or scuba diving?

As you well know, every design feature is a compromise, so what you decide upon should support your primary purpose .

I have been involved in converting an old racing maxi to a cruiser and found that in all areas we had to compromise on function, because of the original racing form
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Old 27-12-2016, 20:36   #3
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Hi Windrush,
I think you first need to prioritize whether this will be a business-lifestyle (charter) or a personal boat-getaway.

If Charter, consider who your primary customers will be, their interests (Speed over comfort) Racing or scuba diving?

As you well know, every design feature is a compromise, so what you decide upon should support your primary purpose .

I have been involved in converting an old racing maxi to a cruiser and found that in all areas we had to compromise on function, because of the original racing form
Thanks,

Since we have a house on an island here. we have the option to stay on the boat or in our house. My intention is chartering the boat out about half the time. The main tourist attractions here is diving, whale watching and hanging out at a beach. but of course tourists want to get to the dive spot or the whales, or a nice beach in a reasonable amount of time, and then hang out, and then make it back to port, sometimes all in the same day. but there will be 2-3 day trips also.

Then about once a year I plan on sailing to Micronesia or Polynesia to escape
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Old 27-12-2016, 21:34   #4
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Find someone with a modern wide transom cruiser and go sailing on it during a passage. Once you get some experience on them it will be clear why they are just better. Unlike a pure displacement hull where the boat starts to get squirrelly as it gets pressed in a fresh breeze. Planing hulls however just keep accelerating and gain more control as they go faster.

Upwind is their weak point, they do need to be sailed at a bit more heel than a rounded hull, but once you get the trick of it down it isn't hard to keep them from pounding. That's why they have twin rudders, is so when the windward side is lifted clear of the water the leeward rudder is working instead. The upside is that it allows a far smaller rudder, and much more bite since there is no concern of air getting pulled down a centerline rudder.

I may (probably) am a minority here, but I would far rather have a modern hull than a full keel. No more feeling a boat just load up more and more as the rig tries to rip out of the hull instead of the hull just smoothly accelerating and turning those loads into more speed.

I feel like a bit of a fanatic, but take a serious look at the larger Pogo's. 9+' draft while sailing, then rotate the keel up and you are at ~3' to access shallow water.

As Bob Perry said in his review of the Pogo 36' it's pretty much the perfect Pacific NW boat.
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Old 28-12-2016, 04:39   #5
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Pogo is a very cool boat, wish I was a bit younger. Some of the modern designs are very quick and would be very rewarding to sail but not all are equal in design or build. I understand wanting a boat that will sail better than your Mariner 40, not that hard to find but getting a comparable build quality is not as easy. I've done the race boat conversion and while it's fun it doesn't make any economic sense, not that any sailboat does. What you may love to own and sail may not be what will be attractive to the charter crowd, something to think about. Yours is the type of problem that is enjoyable to solve.
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Old 28-12-2016, 05:17   #6
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Something like a Moody 58 seams to be what I am looking for, would be even better if it had a lifting keel for getting around the islands here.

I still want to go sailing in a twin rudder performance sled like the user above mentioned, just to get a feel of it and see if that's the direction I want to go.
the main issue I have with those boats is the deep draft.
Anything more than 7 feet would very much limit me going around the islands.

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Old 28-12-2016, 06:42   #7
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Can the 'go fast' sailboats be sailed slow and easy. Or do they sail best with high intensity seat of your pants sailing. Like the Pogo 36 or even boats like the Open 60's?
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Old 28-12-2016, 07:48   #8
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Can the 'go fast' sailboats be sailed slow and easy. Or do they sail best with high intensity seat of your pants sailing. Like the Pogo 36 or even boats like the Open 60's?
It's pretty easy to slow them down, youjust reef earlier than you need to. The thing is that as the speeds climb the boats actually settle down. Sheat loads go down, heel goes down, and the stearing becomes much more responsive. The only way I can describe it is that instead of plowing thru the waves she just starts to glide.

But if you want to sail slow you can, just keep depowering until you get to the speed you want to go.

But watch boat speed stays steadily over 20kn (this is a Pogo's 12.50). The important part I see how little stress there is amongst the crew and how well behaved the boat remains. Other than the wave release there is little video evidence of the speeds.
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Old 28-12-2016, 08:35   #9
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Something like a Moody 58 seams to be what I am looking for, would be even better if it had a lifting keel for getting around the islands here.

I still want to go sailing in a twin rudder performance sled like the user above mentioned, just to get a feel of it and see if that's the direction I want to go.
the main issue I have with those boats is the deep draft.
Anything more than 7 feet would very much limit me going around the islands.

That Moody would be a great choice
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Old 28-12-2016, 08:47   #10
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

Sounds like a multihull would be appropriate for speed, chartering, draft and wife's comfort. And I'm a classicist!
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Old 28-12-2016, 08:59   #11
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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Sounds like a multihull would be appropriate for speed, chartering, draft and wife's comfort. And I'm a classicist!
Yes it's tempting for me to cross over to the dark side hahaha.

But.... for the size I am looking for is $$$$$$$

I would like to stay under $200k knowing that whatever boat I get I will put some money into her. The cats I have looked at in the 50' to 60' range are over $300k
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Old 28-12-2016, 09:00   #12
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

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That Moody would be a great choice
That's what I was thinking
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Old 28-12-2016, 09:02   #13
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

I agree with the multihull recommendation. The only downside is that your wife may kill you when she discovers that she could have been cruising around in comfort for all those years.
Good luck!
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Old 28-12-2016, 11:30   #14
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

If you get a CAT you will only need less than 1/2 the length to get the space you want.
So 38' say, would be plenty.
AND you get more comfort and more speed.
$200K works just fine.
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Old 28-12-2016, 14:15   #15
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Re: Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

While the video of the go fast above is really impressive, I don't see it as practical for OP's plans.

Doesn't seem very comfortable for long passages

No Shade

Weight Limits if cargo includes liveaboard cruising and diving

Because of the many interactive strong currents thru the Philippine Islands, when the monsoon blows, the seas can get pretty square .

If not a multi, for charter consider something solid and sea kindly that let's them have fun or just relax.

Something tough and comfortable like this.Click image for larger version

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