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Polux · 24-01-2017, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You think you could comfortably cruise in a 32 footer?

Again you are looking at boats under a personal perspective, this time mine. It is irrelevant what I think, it is relevant that they sell boats pointed to the ones that like to cruise extensively on small boats.

Personally I think many times that I should downgrade to a smaller fast boat. I don't live with too much stuff, I have a permanent home full of the almost useless memorabilia from the past, art objects, books and cds and a smaller boat can be a lot of fun to sail especially because it is much more easier to manage smaller sails, including Spi and Gennaker. Maintenance is cheaper and new sails also.

That type of RM hull is not particularly good on the med, that has lots of upwind sailing and a narrower hull has a lot less space, so I would not favor that type of hull there but on the trade winds it is a completely different story and on those I would be probably faster with that little boat than with my own boat, not because my boat could not go faster but because to go really fast I would need a crew while the little RM can do it solo and easy.

Also personally, for that, I would go just a big higher on the RM line and I would chose the one up the line, the RM 1070, that is a 35ft, but that is just me, I know lots of sailors that like to cruise in small boats.

Sometimes RM sailors, that are a proud bunch send some news to the shipyard, that is one of the last ones regarding a 10.70 that is crossing the Atlantic, with a stop in Cabo verde:

18 January 2017
"For those who still have questions about the performance of sailing boats RM ...
Attached is a small picture that should make you smile on the French damp and cold winter, the repeater RM1070 Lelo on arrival in Cape Verde.

It took 5 days and half between Lanzarote and Mindelo, with between 18 and 35 knots of wind right in the axis, so a lot of gybes ... The boat is really fast and very pleasant at sea, bravo! "

robert sailor · 24-01-2017, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Again you are looking at boats under a personal perspective, this time mine. It is irrelevant what I think, it is relevant that they sell boats pointed to the ones that like to cruise extensively on small boats.

Personally I think many times that I should downgrade to a smaller fast boat. I don't live with too much stuff, I have a permanent home full of the almost useless memorabilia from the past, art objects, books and cds and a smaller boat can be a lot of fun to sail especially because it is much more easier to manage smaller sails, including Spi and Gennaker. Maintenance is cheaper and new sails also.

That type of RM hull is not particularly good on the med, that has lots of upwind sailing and a narrower hull has a lot less space, so I would not favor that type of hull there but on the trade winds it is a completely different story and on those I would be probably faster with that little boat than with my own boat, not because my boat could not go faster but because to go really fast I would need a crew while the little RM can do it solo and easy.

Also personally, for that, I would go just a big higher on the RM line and I would chose the one up the line, the RM 1070, that is a 35ft, but that is just me, I know lots of sailors that like to cruise in small boats.

Sometimes RM sailors, that are a proud bunch send some news to the shipyard, that is one of the last ones regarding a 10.70 that is crossing the Atlantic, with a stop in Cabo verde:

18 January 2017
"For those who still have questions about the performance of sailing boats RM ...
Attached is a small picture that should make you smile on the French damp and cold winter, the repeater RM1070 Lelo on arrival in Cape Verde.

It took 5 days and half between Lanzarote and Mindelo, with between 18 and 35 knots of wind right in the axis, so a lot of gybes ... The boat is really fast and very pleasant at sea, bravo! "

My friend,
It's not about my choice or yours, it's about what you and I observe when we are out cruising. Our cruising styles are very different for sure so what works for you won't work for me and vise versus but I'm simply giving you my observations from viewing literally thousands of cruising boats in the Pacific, Atlantic, Med, Mexico and the Caribbean. I'm not suggesting that there isn't a small niche market for these boats as from what you tell us there is but it's going to be a very small market compared to the typical cruiser market. To start with while years ago a 32 ft cruiser was very popular but these days a 40 foot boat or close to it is the benchmark and quite frankly most of the cruisers are even larger. My comment on backpackers was to simply

describe a younger minimalist type sailor that had some money that would be attracted to the boat. If I was wasn't cruising full time I wouldn't need half the stuff we carry so I could see being attracted to a design like this but quite frankly I don't think I have in all the years I've been sailing met a full time cruiser that would think this would be a good choice.

Stumble · 24-01-2017, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

My friend,
It's not about my choice or yours, it's about what you and I observe when we are out cruising. Our cruising styles are very different for sure so what works for you won't work for me and vise versus but I'm simply giving you my observations from viewing literally thousands of cruising boats in the Pacific, Atlantic, Med, Mexico and the Caribbean. I'm not suggesting that there isn't a small niche market for these boats as from what you tell us there is but it's going to be a very small market compared to the typical cruiser market. To start with while years ago a 32 ft cruiser was very popular but these days a 40 foot boat or close to it is the benchmark and quite frankly most of the cruisers are even larger. My comment on backpackers was to simply

describe a younger minimalist type sailor that had some money that would be attracted to the boat. If I was wasn't cruising full time I wouldn't need half the stuff we carry so I could see being attracted to a design like this but quite frankly I don't think I have in all the years I've been sailing met a full time cruiser that would think this would be a good choice.

Robert you are making some serious generalizations based on a boat that you have never even seen.

The fact that you haven't seen them out cruising doesn't mean they aren't doing it, but these are small yards, with limited production runs, that have only been building boats for a few years. There just aren't that many in the world. Beneteau probably builds more boats of a specific model in a month than RM builds total each year. But this doesn't mean they aren't suitable, just that I haven't seen one.

In the same vein I have yet to see a Bugatti Veyron at my local track so clearly they are unsutable for the race track.

As for size... meh, some cruisers live on 30' Catalina's, some consider anything under 50' too small. Reviewers look at how well the finished boat meets its design brief, after determining if the brief is suitable for their catagory.

Personally I would want a boat in 40' range. So no this RM wouldn't work for me, but the larger one does.

Matt Johnson · 24-01-2017, 10:39

Personally, I'd love to cruise on an RM. With the beam carried aft, and the room this creates, It's a heck of a lot roomier than our 34' we cruised happily on full time.

Bigger boats typically anchor by bigger boats. Us little guys can sneak into a lot more areas... maybe that's why you haven't seen a lot of smaller boats cruising. In the circle we hung with, lower 30s were normal.

That being said, for the price of a new or used RM in that size, I don't think it would be my first choice. I'd go a bit longer and a few years older if I had to.

Matt

daletournier · 24-01-2017, 12:42

A little drift. I'd never heard of RM yachts, surprised a modern day yacht is produced from Plywood. What is there reasoning? My first boat was ply epoxy and I liked it, but its a medium that is considered more " backyard build" not factor.
I have no problem with it, just surprised.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

robert sailor · 24-01-2017, 13:01

I'm not a naysayer because I love these types of boats. Sure for a niche marketer I'm sure they do just fine but they are a very small player in the cruising market. We love hanging out with cruisers on small boats,,on average they are fun to be around. As I mentioned if we were not doing this 24/7 all year you could probably sell me a boat like this because they have fun written all over them but just a bit on the tight side plus if you load all that beam with cruising gear the performance starts heading south. Nice boats

CbroTheDude · 24-01-2017, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

A little drift. I'd never heard of RM yachts, surprised a modern day yacht is produced from Plywood. What is there reasoning? My first boat was ply epoxy and I liked it, but its a medium that is considered more " backyard build" not factor.
I have no problem with it, just surprised.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

RM claim marine plywood construction makes their boat lighter, more rigid, stiffer, more environment friendly (aka recyclable which is interesting) and offer more personalisation options (flashy colours for the hull)

**neilpride** · 24-01-2017, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

A little drift. I'd never heard of RM yachts, surprised a modern day yacht is produced from Plywood. What is there reasoning? My first boat was ply epoxy and I liked it, but its a medium that is considered more " backyard build" not factor.
I have no problem with it, just surprised.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Personally i never put my money in a wooden boat, some folks can say epoxy and etc.. plywood is not a bad material to boatbuilding but to be honest in the long run can be a isue, they choose Ply and epoxy maybe because is cheaper, no moulds involved and the tooling like in a GRP boat, or they can have a long history building ply boats and they keep going? in any case this boats could be a step or 2 fwd in ply boatbuilding, resale value? i dont know... just becareful the ply is good sealed in the life of the boat and the Paint coating is in good order... we all know how Ply last dry in a boat huu....

Stumble · 24-01-2017, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

A little drift. I'd never heard of RM yachts, surprised a modern day yacht is produced from Plywood. What is there reasoning? My first boat was ply epoxy and I liked it, but its a medium that is considered more " backyard build" not factor.
I have no problem with it, just surprised.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

It is very stiff for it's weight, and very strong. It is also much less labor intensive than handlayed fiberglass, doesn't need molds, and has lower risks than infusion. So it really has a lot of good engineering properties. The downside is that if you leave any edges unprotected rot can set in fast and do a lot of damage in a hurry.

Backyard builders use I think because it doesn't need a mold, RM uses it for it's engineering properties. I an not sold on it for cruising boats, but I wouldn't reject it out of hand. More skeptical but open to it.

RM does have a very good reputation for build quality so if i was in the market I would take a serious look at them at least.

Polux · 24-01-2017, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'm not a naysayer because I love these types of boats. Sure for a niche marketer I'm sure they do just fine but they are a very small player in the cruising market. ....

I believe RM is making 45 yachts a year now. Not a mass production brand but doing much more than many American Shipyards. There are some models with over 100 boats built...and the number of yachts they are building increases each year. They changed to a bigger factory some months ago. As I said they have a waiting list of 18 months for any boat.

They are not only built in plywood but on a special type of plywood made exclusively for them. Than the plywood is hand saturated with epoxy with a roll that applies pressure on the plywood. I visited the shipyard 15 years ago when they were much smaller but had already some sailors that would only buy their boats.

Polux · 24-01-2017, 15:40

And this year was a great year for fast cruisers based on the hull open concept and with planing potential: The 2017 European performance cruiser is the Pogo 36.

Made a post about it on my blog with what lead each of the eleven test sailors to chose the Pogo..... and this year on that segment lots of very interesting sailboats.

Anyway, both RM and Pogo, two small builders had already boats selected as best boat of the year in their categories. In fact, on the last 5 years 4 of the boats belonged to these shipyards and that means that they are not marginal boats anymore, just built for a very small number of sailors.

I don't remember exactly, but Pogo had an incredible number of boats sold before they had even the 36 on the water, something like 30 boats sold on the plans. It seems those guys knew what they were doing since the opinion of those 11 test sailors leave no doubt regarding the new Pogo to be a great boat with a better interior than previous boats. I don't know what is the waiting time for a new Pogo, but with all those commandes I bet it is not less than the waiting time for a RM.

brownoarsman · 24-01-2017, 20:31

Polux, I've heard you mention fast cruisers as being tradewind/downwind boats, or more versatile at all points of sail, depending on brand. None of these boats seem to have high freeboard that would limit them upwind, and they all appear to have wide beam carried to or almost to the transom, at least to my eye. Could you break the performance cruiser boatyards down into those two categories: tradewind cruisers and the more versatile all points of sail boats? Just trying to understand the market a bit better to think about what to charter and what to (possibly) buy either new or used in a few years. Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

SV Windrush II · 24-01-2017, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Polux, I've heard you mention fast cruisers as being tradewind/downwind boats, or more versatile at all points of sail, depending on brand. None of these boats seem to have high freeboard that would limit them upwind, and they all appear to have wide beam carried to or almost to the transom, at least to my eye. Could you break the performance cruiser boatyards down into those two categories: tradewind cruisers and the more versatile all points of sail boats? Just trying to understand the market a bit better to think about what to charter and what to (possibly) buy either new or used in a few years. Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Just to add to this comment, Any boat can sail down wind, heck even a raft with a sail on it can surf down a wave! But being that about half of my sailing here in the Philippines is Upwind, I need something that is better than most boats when sailing upwind. and I want to sail to Micronesia from here which is ALL upwind

Stumble · 24-01-2017, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Just to add to this comment, Any boat can sail down wind, heck even a raft with a sail on it can surf down a wave! But being that about half of my sailing here in the Philippines is Upwind, I need something that is better than most boats when sailing upwind. and I want to sail to Micronesia from here which is ALL upwind

Below are the polar diagrams for the Pogo 50 and the X-Yacht 50 layed on top of each other. As you can see at less than 4kn upwind the Pogo gets crushed, but meh, who sails in 4kn of breeze. By 8kn of breeze the Pogo and X-Yacht are pretty much on par, the X is a touch faster whenever as hard on the wind as possible, by crack off even a touch and the Pogo leaps in front.

Any more breeze than that and the boats are so close together it isn't even worth talking about hard onthe wind, but at all wind speed higher than 10knthe Pogo's vmg is higher upwind though it may not be pointing quite as well. Though generally the Pogo could slow down to the speed of the X and point the same. The trick is you want to keep the bow down to plane upwind. you maybe pointing lower,but upwind vmg is higher. It's a different way of thinking, but it works.

How to divide these designs is tricky, but for some shorthand take a look at the bow. The rounder the hull is forward of the keel the more uncomfortable and pounding the boat will be upwind and the faster off the wind. The rounder the stern is longer it will stay in displacement mode and harder it will be to get it on a plane.