Would You Critique a Boat I Am Looking at, Please ?

[Adax]

Alchemy ,I only just saw your post as I was catching up on everyone´s comments .You have nailed in detail what I was thinking in the big picture .If I can swing the maintenance mostly by myself and quickly to make it floatable then it looks like a project go .the hull soundness being the deciding factor.Work does not scare me,fitted out this house to spec over 7 years ,but did not want unsolvables with this boat or how to say it one surprise after the other .Interesting that what attracted me initially to the boat- its decent equipment - may or may not work and I am still interested .

[iciela]

Hey lady,my advice is :stop talking about it,move it before someone else gets it...in the last 2 years,i've seen at least 10 boats sold in my face while i was thinking" Uhhhmmm,maybe i should go and have a look at that one!..."...still looking !!!
PS: can't believe how many people put their faith in surveyors and insurances !!!...

[zeehag]

gurl-- what he sed-- grab her and run like a scalded dog and make her yours and what i sed in pm before--- good catch-- go for it!!! oh yeah-- run like a scalded dog, turn , laugh and sail your ass off..LOL...she will be goood for ye.

[Adax]

Terrible,terrible those steel boats .everyone should go for plastic boats.....Suggest everyone immediately turn attention to that ....
No worries if I don't post for a while.It is not as if I a m going to LA Paz or anything like...

But seriously if she is going to be mine she will be be my day job but I think worth it. I can't go up there until end of Feb when the house sells but hope she will still be there -- Sabres not being drawn and all that haha

Rover ,thanks for the tips . Seems the same as buying a car where you check the bonnet for signs of heat:Any other similarities or differences ?

Iciela going out on a limb here but I will look at that girl and see if I want to dance with her . flying in a surveyor seems an expense not immediately called for .I was looking at a 33 ft Topper Hermanson and immediatley had a bad feeling, even though I was intrigued.Turns out it needed welding in 20 places after survey. This one feels more solid .

[speakeasy]

Lots of good advice and observations here, like roverhi's and Brent Swain's and many others. I thought I heard you say you thought the "brokers" would help you to find the right boat?? ahem! Brokers are salesmen and are not "cruisers" and will do and say what they must to get the commission from a sale and move on, by selling you or anyone a boat, any boat. Their job is to be charming and empathetic. OK?

I just bought a tough old boat that'd been on the hard for just over two years in Guaymas and surveyed out very well. Trust me, you will need to rehab most of the systems on board, heads, salt water faucets, bilge pumps, frozen through-hulls, electrical systems, engine hoses, batteries, and on and on and on until you feel you understand and can live with the systems that make up your floating home and vessel. Rigging, mast, stays, shrouds, halyards, lines, sheets, anchors, windlass, dinghy, dink motor, and so forth. Not in any way do I wish to be discouraging, only to say that the timeline will very likely be extended from what you now envision. Patience, grasshopper will be you new mantra me thinks. It's mine.

But then, I've learned loads from new friends who know boats, and continue to meet new friends who live in the present and the imagination of where to go next, but this real world of Mexican ports. It's a good life with a promise to be even better across the water. But it's demanding for the novice, which again, late in life, find myself to be. I don't mind. When I chose to be come a sailor I knew that one of the wonders and benefits would be that I would be entering a world that I could never hope to know all about, that would keep me curious and busy for the rest of my life. I have tended to lose interest in a subject as soon as I have it figured out, but now I've walked through a new door into a world I may never master or leave.

You sound like you are already an independent person, so the steep learning curve ahead should provide you with as much excitement as it does frustration. That will probably be a fine trade-off for the likes of you. Buena Suerte, Hermana. If you come to La Paz, look me up, dock A, Marina de La Paz. My buds and I have sundowners everyday at 5-ish, and good talk can be had. And a friend whose built two steelies who would be invaluable as a second pair of eyes will be back here mid Feb. If I'm gone 'til mid March, see Brian, slip 118, and tell him Jon sent you to get advice about a local steel boat. He love a project and If I were in your shoes, I'd want him to come look at it with me.

Good luck.

ps: if you stay in warm climes, paint the boat white. The blue hull will increase temps a lot in the interior.

[Khagan1227]

Originally Posted by Adax

Terrible,terrible those steel boats .everyone should go for plastic boats.....Suggest everyone immediately turn attention to that ....
No worries if I don't post for a while.It is not as if I a m going to LA Paz or anything like...

But seriously if she is going to be mine she will be be my day job but I think worth it. I can't go up there until end of Feb when the house sells but hope she will still be there -- Sabres not being drawn and all that haha

Rover ,thanks for the tips . Seems the same as buying a car where you check the bonnet for signs of heat:Any other similarities or differences ?

Iciela going out on a limb here but I will look at that girl and see if I want to dance with her . flying in a surveyor seems an expense not immediately called for .I was looking at a 33 ft Topper Hermanson and immediatley had a bad feeling, even though I was intrigued.Turns out it needed welding in 20 places after survey. This one feels more solid .

Adax,

You got to do, what you got to do, but just remember, rust never sleeps. Steel means maintenance and constant attention. With steel you must be very careful of mixing metal fastners, etc. You will find rust in the worst possible locations and have to prime and paint it. Thinning steel can also be an issue, especially at welded joints.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck!

[SabreKai]

Oh hey, forgot to mention this. When I bought Sabre Dance she had been sitting on the hard for 5 or more years. Not knowing the state of the engine, I hired the local mech to do his rituals and check it out. After all things were said and done, the engine started up like a charm and ran without smoke for the better part of half an hour. He brought it up to operating temp to make sure everything worked and then we shut it down.

Upon launch he came back down to do the initial start up. Started up ok but it put out a huge cloud of the blackest smoke I'd ever seen, So bad that people ran back about 50 feet. You couldn't see the travel lift at all even though we were less than 5 feet away. After a minute it cleared up, the engine settled down and no smoke noticeable.

However, since the mast was down for repairs until August I didn't get a chance to sail her til then, and the few times I did try, the wind was almost nonexistant. So, the engine was used for a fair bit of motoring. Can't say it was a lot, perhaps 25-30 hours.

At some point I figure the rear main oil seal let go, probably dried out from the years of sitting without ever being turned over. Anyway, the engine barfed the entire contents of the oil pan into the bilge. I was lucky enough that I found it before we went out for another run, the dipstick was bone dry. It took a tad over 4 quarts to fill it up again. At this point I'm pretty sure the seal is gone, I didn't see any other leaks around the front or sides. I'll be checking that all out this spring, but I may be replacing the engine.

Ask the yard how many times over the years the engine has been at least turned over so oil could lubricate the parts and seals. They say the engine was run in May, which is good. But ask them about this. If you do go down, pay close attention to the engine and bilge area for any sign of oil. And if you do buy her, make sure you check the oil level every couple of hours. I got lazy and didn't check for about 10 hours after it had been running for a while with no signs of problem. I was rewarded with a bone dry engine and a bilge full of oil.


Sabre

PS. Not to worry, I won't be flying down there to snaffle her out from under you. I've got what I've got, and will grit my teeth and get her into the shape I want. Its a good excuse to go over every inch and fix or repair all the silly things the original owner did. Have you ever heard of anyone ever sealing the holding tank into a compartment with no access for ever and ever? Things like that.

[lookoutnw]

With a genset on board, a $2K or 2 boat bucks, you can have a miller Diversion Tig welder on hand. @40 Volt and 40 - 50 amp and you can weld all you want on a sandbar. Me I prefer FRG, I can lay more on and on and on... Steel boat like electralysis I believe.

[BlueWaterSail]

Adax, I think the consensus here (and your own thinking) is that this is a project boat. Despite all the calls to "go for it", I feel that a cautionary note is in order at this time.

Your ultimate goal is to sail away, right? Well, with this vessel, you will need to spent a lot of time and, chances are, money to get there. There are many things you can do yourself, enlist friends, etc., but parts and specialized services for a boat of this size are expensive, and will most likely be required. All of this expense ultimately comes out of your overall "live the dream" kitty, and a project boat such as this one may cost you that dream because you are focused on the work at hand, not the ultimate goal.

I was in the local yacht brokerage a couple of weeks ago, the owner was telling me that sellers are practically giving their boats away due to the economic conditions, they just want to get out. This implies that listing prices are more negotiable than ever, I would definitely search for cruising boats that are actually out there, lowball offers to your hearts desire, there are some incredible bargains to be had.

In conclusion, you need to look at the real-world cost of doing the work that's required here - you have little experience, and unfortunately that keeps telling me that you should take on as few major projects as possible - so you can enjoy the lifestyle as much as possible.

BWS

[Khagan1227]

Originally Posted by BlueWaterSail

Adax, I think the consensus here (and your own thinking) is that this is a project boat. Despite all the calls to "go for it", I feel that a cautionary note is in order at this time.

Your ultimate goal is to sail away, right? Well, with this vessel, you will need to spent a lot of time and, chances are, money to get there. There are many things you can do yourself, enlist friends, etc., but parts and specialized services for a boat of this size are expensive, and will most likely be required. All of this expense ultimately comes out of your overall "live the dream" kitty, and a project boat such as this one may cost you that dream because you are focused on the work at hand, not the ultimate goal.

I was in the local yacht brokerage a couple of weeks ago, the owner was telling me that sellers are practically giving their boats away due to the economic conditions, they just want to get out. This implies that listing prices are more negotiable than ever, I would definitely search for cruising boats that are actually out there, lowball offers to your hearts desire, there are some incredible bargains to be had.

In conclusion, you need to look at the real-world cost of doing the work that's required here - you have little experience, and unfortunately that keeps telling me that you should take on as few major projects as possible - so you can enjoy the lifestyle as much as possible.

BWS

What BWS said...

[Adax]

Good morning all,

Speakeasy ,what a kind offer,thank you. I hope that I will be up there, when both you and your friend are there. His help would be immeasurable as a steel boat builder. And I did not mean to sound naive about the broker . He has a job to do as a broker and I have a job as a buyer. I guess I was just relieved not to deal with someone immediately objectionable and it came over as naiveté. Like you I don't mind being a newbie even at this stage of my life and am prepared to learn .It is the "this much all at once" that still occupies my mind .

Sabre,thanks for telling me that story about the engine. It does say it was run in May ,which to me is still a long time.I asked the broker outright if theer is any mtce routine for the girl and did not get an answer.It might just be that the enquiry was per mail , but it stuck in my mind to be persistent about it when we talk. Your story also reminded me of my first car that I bought from an ex policeman -wife´s car of course hehe- and it blew a ring on the highway and the plastic engine parts caught fire because of the hot oil spurting everywhere. Was running like a dream on the test drive. Mechanic told me that it was a classic case of overfilling with oil to dampen down engine noise. Never forgot that lesson .

Rover thanks for the headsup on the windlass and it possible being a special size only available from manufacturer.

BWS,a project boat ,definitely ,even the broker says so. I woke up with the very same question on my mind and I don't know the answer.I would take satisfaction in putting her back in the water . I know there are plenty of other boats about and I could travel for them, but again it eats into my budget and I will have time limitations eg in the US with 3 months looking /restoring and I have the idea that the restoration would cost me more in the US than down here with ancillary costs ,lift out, drydock etc In other words I would need to find a sailaway that only needs varnishing and new curtains. Chances of that ? Hmm
Re" living the dream" it has no date. The sooner the better of course .

Khagan,I can see your point of view.It is just that this boat is more boat than I can ever hope to get if I don't invest hard graft.Do I need that much boat Hmm possibly no but I kind of want it ,if it is this one.

Look out now thanks for the prices on welding equipment. I am considering it . Saved me a job looking.

I can see two scenarios playing out ,the first one I would appreciate some input on . Let´s say I buy her today . My aim would be to get her floatable so that I can live on her and move her to a hurricane hidey hole ( not me , but hiring someone to do it for me and teach me at the same time . ) That would give me until November to work on her and even beyond that depending, if she has eaten too much into my bank balance and I will need to work to preserve cash. Second scenario would be to sit out the hurricane season and still buy her, if she is there to get 6 clear months for working on her.

My question is a noob question,of course and I am not looking for anything remotely accurate just a ball park figure,assuming the hull is as sound as stated and the engine works ok. I know it is a how long is a piece of string question but really ..


What do you see as the minimum investment in both time and money for floatability and liveability (don't have many requirements in that regard only that she be dry and if the solars/gen could drive the fridge I would be happy but not a necessity.).

I can pay professionals to a degree, if they save me rent on land, if they can speed up the restoration process so that she can go back in water.

[perchance]

Originally Posted by atoll

hot dipped galvanized or hot sprayed and epoxy coated ;hull should be in mint condition,except where damage or work subsequent to galvanizing.

perkins 4108 engine pretty indestructable and cheap easy to find parts,though may have issues with heat exchangers due to corrosion.

rigging,would need to rerig,and new halyards,$1000 dollars for wire and stalocks would double that at least.

probably need to replace most of the wiring and batteries.

otherwise they sail very well friend had one.

best survey if you can find a yachty with a steel boat,long term will give you a very good idea of what you are buying

if the boat was built proffesionally in france it will have insulation at least to the water line,polystyrene panels or sprayed polyeurathane
would offer half asking price

The tankage? If steel may need replacing. Galvanizing is a +++ as stated above.

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by Adax

Good morning all,

ETC...

What do you see as the minimum investment in both time and money for floatability and liveability (don't have many requirements in that regard only that she be dry and if the solars/gen could drive the fridge I would be happy but not a necessity.).

I can pay professionals to a degree, if they save me rent on land, if they can speed up the restoration process so that she can go back in water.

You'd better come back and edit out after "WHAT" or you'll have a whole new thread..but simply,start with a boat that does NOT need a restoration.You will in the end ,gamble.All these excellent posts are to help you lower the odds....

[Adax]

happy seagull , I agree on the excellent posts bit and it being a gamble,not on the boat that needs no restoration. My budget will always need a boat in restoration as I will need a liveaboard as well. If you will my question at the end is an attempt at lowering the odds of that gamble. I am not asking anybody to look up costs of winches or spare parts availability just a ball park figure and time estimate .

[barnakiel]

Good designer.

Good engine make there.

The wood / interior looks fine.

The size a good liveaboard if expensivish for haul out and marina stays.

A steel boat may get pretty hot in Sea of Cortez unless insulated.

Standing rigging replace if original.

Calc in all the repairs and updates you like.

Hire a surveyor unless you are into steel boats.

Probably too big to learn.

If you are new to sailing my advice is to learn sailing a Laser off the beach and only then go for a keel boat.

I have taught sailing on a too-big keel boat (owner's boat) and I found the size and the complication limiting factors to my student.

b.