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View Poll Results: Would you allow this...???
Yes 114 95.00%
No 6 5.00%
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Old 29-01-2008, 02:18   #31
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Dan,
You got my point. If someones in trouble a couple of miles away I'm going to try to get to him pretty much reguardless of the conditions cos that's the kind of guy I am and I like to sleep at night. Now if the boat in trouble doesn't have basic safety kit, and basic is what I'm talking about, and it would have made a difference, I'm going to be pretty pissed of if I lose my boat or worse. There really are guys out there that go out with no thought to safety cos the think someone will just come along and rescue them and we need to be protected from them. On a day to day basis you can't do that without government legislation and nobody wants that but for an organised event I think that the organisers should be able to say that there is a minimum requirement even if it's just a raft (we are talking about crossing the Atlantic here aren't we?) and a bucket.
Is it me that's missing something here? Where does government legislation, control freaks and watertight bulkheads come into it. I said no and still say no on the grounds of "Basic" safety because we're not all the same. Some people think nothing of endandering others lives and they do that by not taking basic safety precautions. Someone somewhere will try to rescue them.
Chris
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Old 29-01-2008, 11:19   #32
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Dan,
You got my point. If someones in trouble a couple of miles away I'm going to try to get to him pretty much reguardless of the conditions cos that's the kind of guy I am and I like to sleep at night. Now if the boat in trouble doesn't have basic safety kit, and basic is what I'm talking about, and it would have made a difference, I'm going to be pretty pissed of if I lose my boat or worse. There really are guys out there that go out with no thought to safety cos the think someone will just come along and rescue them and we need to be protected from them. On a day to day basis you can't do that without government legislation and nobody wants that but for an organised event I think that the organisers should be able to say that there is a minimum requirement even if it's just a raft (we are talking about crossing the Atlantic here aren't we?) and a bucket.
Is it me that's missing something here? Where does government legislation, control freaks and watertight bulkheads come into it. I said no and still say no on the grounds of "Basic" safety because we're not all the same. Some people think nothing of endandering others lives and they do that by not taking basic safety precautions. Someone somewhere will try to rescue them.
Chris
The problem is, where do you draw the line and WHO draws it?

As an example.....I have sailed around the world twice. Upon leaving (in '84), I decided that a life-raft was essential. After 5 years, I had my "Life-raft" inspected and found out that it was junk from day 1.

After much reflection and experience, I made the decision that a life-raft is the most dangerous thing that a small boat can carry (IMO). Many more people die trying to use them than are rescued in them. Also, many boats are found drifting at sea with no crew and life-raft missing. So.....I have come to the conclusion that life-rafts are a hazard, based on my experiences. I sailed 65K miles without one.

Do I recommend that others accept the same course of action that I did????.....HELL NO !!!!..... By the same token, I would never tell another sailor what he must carry on his boat so that I feel that he is safe.

However, if any sailor finds himself in need of rescue and asks for help, I think that he should be responsible any and all costs (life-raft or no life-raft).

So again, I ask you.........who is it that draws that line??

Wayne
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Old 29-01-2008, 13:19   #33
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Wayne, I think an uncontrolable fire onboard is the most dangerous thing and in that case a (working) liferaft has it's uses
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Old 29-01-2008, 13:34   #34
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The simple answer: Yes

But why the question? If a bunch of guys and/or gals want to go out sailing who can stop them? As in a previous post, who's going to tell a bunch of old salts they can't go out?

Something tells me these guys are probably safer sailors than you'd find in most club races, they know going in the odds are they're going to be totally on their own.
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Old 29-01-2008, 15:37   #35
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So, lets say your entering the event with your new $9,000,000 yacht and while your surveying the competition your thinking a few of them should be banned from competition because they are a danger to everyone. Especially the crew of the "2fargone" which clearly have not prepared for the trip and while everyones checking their rigging these guys are having a barbecue.

A week or two out your starting to have a few electrical problems. It seems that your generator has failed and your batteries have already drained to a very low level and all effort to repair it have failed.

Your only a few hundred miles from safety but only one boat in sight when a blue northern comes through. It's not your lucky day because suddenly your taking on a lot of water. As you prepare to abandon ship the wind and seas thrash at your life raft and it's just your luck it gets a big rip in it and it's not going to make it.

So just before dark the "2fargone" pulls along side to render assistance. Do you wait for the next boat or catch a ride?
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Old 29-01-2008, 15:39   #36
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Wayne, I think an uncontrolable fire onboard is the most dangerous thing and in that case a (working) liferaft has it's uses
I'd rather have a good fire extinguisher . In fact, I had 5 of them. 2 were Halon automatic extinguishers set-up in the engine room. When you have no life-raft, the incentive to stay afloat takes on a whole new meaning.

BTW.........I did have a dinghy that was rigged up to automatically release if the boat were to be submerged.

Wayne
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Old 29-01-2008, 15:56   #37
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Old 29-01-2008, 17:34   #38
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If someone wants to be a candidate for a Darwin Award then they have every right to do so and no government should attempt to stop them. That same government has no obligation to save them should they choose to be stupid either.

Shipping companies not only lose huge amounts of money by having to do rescues, their reputation as being fast and reliable is damaged as well by having to re-route to do a rescue. This of course causes them to lose customers, which is immeasurable.

Launching a lifeboat from a ship on any kind of seas is a dangerous procedure. Lives are lost each year on merchant ships just doing lifeboat drills alone.

I can see it reaching a point one day where long distance cruisers will have to get certified by most countries before they can leave port and where if they fail to pass inspection and still choose to leave, then they understand that they are truly on their own.

Some people are abusing the Law of the Sea by crossing an ocean grossly unprepared. The Law of the Sea should not cover intentional unpreparedness. I know that sounds cold, but others lives are put at risk and large amounts of money frequently budgeted and intended to save lives is lost, almost every time someone needs help at sea.

At the very least, private companies and governments should be able to bill people by having to rescue people as a result of grossly bad seamanship and/or bad equipment or lack of the proper safety equipment.
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Old 29-01-2008, 21:34   #39
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Where would one look to find what equipment is necessary, and what steps need to be taken to establish seaworthiness, and other requirements such as training, experience, certification, etc. to establish oneself as being worthy of shoving off or maybe worthy of obtaining help at sea if the odd incident should occur without feeling or being accused of being ill prepared?


For instance, someone heading out in a bath tub with a bottle of sunscreen may be obvious but it seems like there would be a lot of gray area.

Are you a complete idiot if you don't have $10,000 worth of safety equipment?
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Old 29-01-2008, 22:28   #40
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Where would one look to find what equipment is necessary, and what steps need to be taken to establish seaworthiness, and other requirements such as training, experience, certification, etc. to establish oneself as being worthy of shoving off or maybe worthy of obtaining help at sea if the odd incident should occur without feeling or being accused of being ill prepared?
You could start here: ISAF : Offshore Special Regulations -- the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations, which are intended for racers but are also useful for cruisers.

Most races will specify the rules under which the race will be run, and races offshore generally specify equipment and training/experience requirements, either by explicit reference to the ISAF Special Regs or their own version of them.

It seems to me that the Jester Challenge isn't really doing anything differently -- they too are specifying the rules (even if none) under which the event is being organized and the equipment and other requirements (or expectations) needed in order to participate. I say let them do it.

Rule 4 from the Racing Rules of Sailing applies: "The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue racing is hers alone."
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Old 29-01-2008, 22:40   #41
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I voted yes. Let the free spirit roam.
Emilia Earhart said "adventure is worthwhile in itself".
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Old 29-01-2008, 22:41   #42
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Not to mention the idea that this "law of the sea" that many have their own idea about came about when everyone out there was doing their thing for a living. This recreation thing is relatively new and changes things quite a bit.
Consider the history of automobiles. Early on one had to be self sufficient to just drive to the next town. Not now. Now one only had to make a call and get help.
With more and more people doing it we will use the same reasoning, the same technologies, the same complexities and all will be good.
If it returns to "Waterworld" then who cares. 99.9% of us are dead. Does everyone think they will be the 0.1% with the gills or friends of the "gills"? I am not fooling my old self. You?
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Old 30-01-2008, 00:20   #43
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I voted yes for a few reasons.I don't have a yacht and have never sailed a foot in my life.I guess to that,some would say,that my opinon dosen't count or matter.Like I care!!!But when I do have a yacht and when it comes time to sail that foot,one thing is for sure.I will take more than the minimum amount of safety equipment needed,and I'm not talking about sailing over ocean's,just coastal.A person would be a fool not to.What other people do is their's to decide.So be it.B.T.W,It's an event not a race,so I would expect that normal sailing preparedness with concerns to seaworthyness of the vessel might be the basic nobrainer for all concerned who participate.Even with people that have all the bells and whistles to go with their trillion dollar boat can get into trouble and put peoples lives at risk.

Having said that.It sounds to me that a large amount of sailers on this forum seem to think that they are the only people paying taxes and assumeing that some people that get into difficulty are somehow wasting "THEIR" hard earned taxes on rescues at sea.Almost to the point of putting a monetry worth on others lives.Even though I plan to do my upmost to be and stay safe at sea,it seems a little up one's self to think that other people dont pay taxes,hard earned one's at that.

Taxes and death are the only sure things in life.Freedom to be and do one's own thing is growing shorter as we speak.Mudnut.
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Old 30-01-2008, 04:04   #44
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:38   #45
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They need to be able to sail. If someone goes to sea, and is not prepared to face the consequences of their decisions. That in it's self is a mistake. If you choose to go in a unseaworthy boat. Then I call that the thinning of the gene pool.

I know my boat is seaworthy, and my skills are competent. If my vessel goes down. Would I want to be rescued? Yes I would, but if there is no one to rescue me. I will not hold a grudge. I, and I only need to understand I cannot depend on anyone to come to my assistance.

Would I rescue another person? Absolutely, but there may be a time when you can't help them. It wouldn't rest easy in my heart, but there may be a time when you have to save yourself.
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