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Old 13-05-2013, 16:34   #46
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You mean there is no ideal boat for the worst conditions? Gosh, who would have guessed that! seriously, I think you agree with my picture of the ideal boat for it and like you, I also think it doesn't exist. I just tried to show how to determine which one does better than the other one, i.e. when it is rougher
My thoughts exactly. I agree 100%
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Old 13-05-2013, 16:47   #47
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Hahaha!

Good one. HR too!

;-)))
b.
Hey Chuckles... right now there are thirty Oyster yachts ranging in size from 47 ft up to 88 ft participating in a one year circumnavigation rally. Name any other manufacturer sponsoring an event of this nature. Over 100 Oysters have already completed the same adventure. They're built to take the worst conditions when encountered, they're also built to be fast enough to avoid the weather when possible.

The same build quality applies to the other manufacturers I mentioned in an earlier post including Sundeer, which I forgot to include.
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Old 13-05-2013, 16:51   #48
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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You think so? I think they are designed for optimum sales figures and any heavy weather suitability is there only because it was assumed beneficial for sales of the product.
Not that I can come up with something that is designed for it because I don't think it exists, no market for it.
Bingo.

Both are not the worst makes in the world, but definitely not 'built to take the worst weather'. Unless we mean the worst weather during summer boat show.

No hard facts. Just opinions based on my personal experience onboard some Oysters and some HRs.

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Old 13-05-2013, 17:17   #49
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Hey Chuckles...
My take: you want quality, you buy a K&M alloy toy from Dykstra's. (example generic).

McDonald's were sponsoring an Olympic event too. I would not give their food five stars for being the healthiest food around.

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Old 13-05-2013, 17:56   #50
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
While not worst conditions, my money is on drinks, dinner, and desert being served on S/V Jedi in Force 8 conditions.
Deckofficer,
Judging by the name I am assuming you have been to sea. And I usually agree with all that you have posted...especially about Kenwood HF rigs

in a full Gale...at sea... you think its gonna be tea and crumpets down below while playing scrabble telling sea stories in a 64ft boat? Really? Will it be livable, safe and crew able to maintain themselves and the boat?.... sure, but you are not going below for an enjoyable evening.....
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Old 13-05-2013, 18:09   #51
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Deckofficer,
Judging by the name I am assuming you have been to sea. And I usually agree with all that you have posted...especially about Kenwood HF rigs

in a full Gale...at sea... you think its gonna be tea and crumpets down below while playing scrabble telling sea stories in a 64ft boat? Really? Will it be livable, safe and crew able to maintain themselves and the boat?.... sure, but you are not going below for an enjoyable evening.....
I'm only going on what reviews of the Sundeer series have noted. Your correct, it would be a stretch thinking of serving meals in 18' seas and 34 kt of wind, but I'm certain Nick has been in those conditions and can comment if it is white knuckle or tea time aboard S/V Jedi in those conditions.
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Old 13-05-2013, 18:56   #52
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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post

Deckofficer,
Judging by the name I am assuming you have been to sea. And I usually agree with all that you have posted...especially about Kenwood HF rigs

in a full Gale...at sea... you think its gonna be tea and crumpets down below while playing scrabble telling sea stories in a 64ft boat? Really? Will it be livable, safe and crew able to maintain themselves and the boat?.... sure, but you are not going below for an enjoyable evening.....
I'm almost ashamed to post this but have to admit that yes, it really is that easy. I will compare with a steel 30' van de Stadt, named "Boreas", that I sailed for 17 years: the movement, that you feel when walking on deck with Bft.8 on Jedi is about the same as with Bft.5 on Boreas. I don't even use a harness all the time. Inside, the difference is even bigger. In Bft.8, I can go down, start the coffee maker, take a nice hot shower, pour the coffee in a mug and then go up into the pilothouse with it. That gets you straightened out during bad weather! We even bake apple pie and play loud rock music during full gales. Because we can and like it. On the Boreas, in Bft.8 I would not go down inside if I wouldn't need to but even at Bft.5, to make coffee I had to boil water and pour it into a filter. I did that of-course, but I also burned my hands doing it. Then a shower: there was none. Hot water: nope. Looking back at it, we actually had fun but just because we were so young.

This is why big boats are so much easier. Never believe that they are more difficult to sail, it's all blah blah from those who want to impress.

About sails: Boreas was a sloop. I would have 2 reefs in the main and jib II hanked on the forestay in Bft.8. That is a lot of work, although we always had that jib ready to go on a 2nd forestay (side by side, old fashioned way). Jedi is a ketch. In Bft.8, I have several options! To windward, I prefer to dump the main and sail on full mizzen and our 95% jib (I have no other jibs). Downwind, I dump the mizzen and furl the jib and use full main with preventer. We still do 10 knots that way, but the ride is like if you're in a marina... with 40+ knots wind sustained.

Here are some videos to show life aboard Dashew boats:



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Old 13-05-2013, 19:03   #53
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

As we can't afford a Sundeer, or an Oyster, in any lenght, I will stick with our 51 ft Epoxy ketch, she's a little heavey, but she's hell for stout, and with her big pilot house she' s pretty comfortable in heavey weather ! she has great sea berths as well as a real bed for at anchor ! and a small well equiped galley, that ya can cook in when it gets rough outside.And she has enough HP in the engine room when it's needed. Theres are lot of different ideas about what ya need for bad weather boating ! we feel that a boat with enough comfort when the going gets rough, to not knock yourself out trying to get a little sleep and a little hot food at least once a day !! But then we are cheap cruisers, and fancys not in our pocket book! but comfort is !! Just sayin that a good sea boat will take a lot more then your body will !!!
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Old 13-05-2013, 19:22   #54
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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post

I'm only going on what reviews of the Sundeer series have noted. Your correct, it would be a stretch thinking of serving meals in 18' seas and 34 kt of wind, but I'm certain Nick has been in those conditions and can comment if it is white knuckle or tea time aboard S/V Jedi in those conditions.
Really, 34 knots of wind is nothing special here in our neck of the woods. If it is a squall I don't even reef for it. 18' seas are impressive. The problem is that I have never been in those seas with my smaller boats so I can't compare. Our first trip down the Colombian coast we had 40kts wind and 18-20' seas and I was rather impressed with the conditions. Roughest of the Caribbean I think and remembered with respect by every world cruiser coming through the area. But like with so many things, after a couple hours I got used to it and as we were so much faster than our buddy boat (a catamaran! ) I had to reduce sail anyway. An unplanned gybe was also part of it as I remember I decided to drop the main but wanted to come up into the wind for that, while we were heading dead downwind. So, I start the engine, furl away the jib and plan to make the turn in between two waves. Because I am such a hot shot sailor, I missed that timing and got a wave smack on the beam. It was a non-event. So, I lower the main, tidy up and then go back to take the wheel and now I must turn down wind again. I explain to Josie that I plan to just lay beam to for a while to see what happens. After some arguing I was allowed to play and did just that. Nothing happened, we hardly rolled. Not a speck of water on deck, the seas just rolled underneath. Then I made a small mistake, I turned the boat further down wind but still had almost no forward speed. Now a wave came to meet our sugarscoop stern and it didn't raise fast enough to prevent the stern doing honor to it's name: scooping. Most didn't make it to deck but enough did to make me shower and get dry clothes afterwards.
To finish the story, I unfurled as little jib as I could and that plus the rigging put us at 6-7kts which meant the buddyboat gained again and they arrived in port 1 hour after us. Thus all happened between Cabo de la Vela and the 5-Bays area, we entered the middle bay, Bahia Gairaca. This was our reward:
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Old 13-05-2013, 19:26   #55
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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
As we can't afford a Sundeer, or an Oyster, in any lenght, I will stick with our 51 ft Epoxy ketch, she's a little heavey, but she's hell for stout, and with her big pilot house she' s pretty comfortable in heavey weather ! she has great sea berths as well as a real bed for at anchor ! and a small well equiped galley, that ya can cook in when it gets rough outside.And she has enough HP in the engine room when it's needed. Theres are lot of different ideas about what ya need for bad weather boating ! we feel that a boat with enough comfort when the going gets rough, to not knock yourself out trying to get a little sleep and a little hot food at least once a day !! But then we are cheap cruisers, and fancys not in our pocket book! but comfort is !! Just sayin that a good sea boat will take a lot more then your body will !!!
Yes Bob, but at 51' you must be pretty comfy too at 35kts wind. I bet you can also turn out good meals from the galley under those conditions, being from LA and all. We'll be visiting LA again this summer to get some nice shrimp Po'boys again
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Old 13-05-2013, 19:37   #56
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Hey Chuckles... right now there are thirty Oyster yachts ranging in size from 47 ft up to 88 ft participating in a one year circumnavigation rally. Name any other manufacturer sponsoring an event of this nature. Over 100 Oysters have already completed the same adventure. They're built to take the worst conditions when encountered, they're also built to be fast enough to avoid the weather when possible.

The same build quality applies to the other manufacturers I mentioned in an earlier post including Sundeer, which I forgot to include.
Not sure why someone would want to do a one year circumnav, but that is a different question. What I found fascinating in our travels is how often Oysters seem to be rallies like the World ARC in comparison to the number you see cruising independently. It is the only brand that I have seen this trend with. In comparison, you see many more Amels cruising independently than in rallies. Not sure what it is about Otster owners, they like social scene, they want their world cruise but don't want to take too long doing it?

A comment about your list of approved brands, the original question about the boat best-suited to the worst conditions did not mention a money limit but in the real world this is obviously critical. The boats you mention are all multiple six figure, if not seven figure purchases and for most of us there is little point in even considering them.

A few years ago the Discovery 55 was my ultimate boat, although obviously way out of budget. This changed when we met the owners of one in Indonesia who were on their fourth (4th!) mast in ten years. They had also had major problems with their chain plates. The latter seemed familiar since we had considered a Swan 43, also a Holland design, that had had to have major and costly chain plate rebuilds. In fact, our broker had indicated that although he loved older S&S and newer Frers Swans, but did not have a high regard for the Holland Swans. Perhaps the lesson is to judge particular models rather than builders.
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Old 13-05-2013, 19:48   #57
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Not sure why someone would want to do a one year circumnav, but that is a different question. What I found fascinating in our travels is how often Oysters seem to be rallies like the World ARC in comparison to the number you see cruising independently. It is the only brand that I have seen this trend with. In comparison, you see many more Amels cruising independently than in rallies. Not sure what it is about Otster owners, they like social scene, they want their world cruise but don't want to take too long doing it?

A comment about your list of approved brands, the original question about the boat best-suited to the worst conditions did not mention a money limit but in the real world this is obviously critical. The boats you mention are all multiple six figure, if not seven figure purchases and for most of us there is little point in even considering them.

A few years ago the Discovery 55 was my ultimate boat, although obviously way out of budget. This changed when we met the owners of one in Indonesia who were on their fourth (4th!) mast in ten years. They had also had major problems with their chain plates. The latter seemed familiar since we had considered a Swan 43, also a Holland design, that had had to have major and costly chain plate rebuilds. In fact, our broker had indicated that although he loved older S&S and newer Frers Swans, but did not have a high regard for the Holland Swans. Perhaps the lesson is to judge particular models rather than builders.
I believe most Oysters are owned as a status symbol but I've also seen plenty that are cruising so there are always exceptions. Amels are better cruising boats even though they cost less.

I don't understand your 6-figure comment though.. yes, these boats all cost that, but so do many of the much smaller catamarans and there are so many of those! I don't think that 5-figure boats are the norm, I think they are the exception, but that could differ from area to area around the world. Having sailed those for most of my life, I think they are just not the boats for this thread. Can they survive those conditions? Sure they can and do all the time, but there are much better options out there. I would try to avoid anything full gale and up with a boat costing less than 6 figures. That leaves enough times to end up in it anyway.
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Old 06-02-2014, 00:58   #58
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

A flat deck is not a good idea... if it rolls then suction is your enemy
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:43   #59
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Generally speaking flush decks are the strongest
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:38   #60
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My H22 was six figures.. £3000.00... guess that puts me up there with the 'Blue Waters'....
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