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Old 12-05-2013, 07:31   #16
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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I won't say a particular vessel, but based on my experience offshore in various craft I have owned here is what I would want: monohull, 37 feet, fairly heavy, long fin keel with skeg-hung rudder on stern, moderate beam,

...

As much as possible I would reduce or eliminate through hulls: transom hung rudder, composting toilet, shared drain for galley and head, transom scuppers for cockpit, etc. All systems would be simple and robust, with weights centralized and low down whenever possible.
Thanks Kettlewell, I can check off more than 1/2 the items on your list with my Rafiki-37. Boy, do I feel tough now .
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:42   #17
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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I agree--what I meant were tubular hand rails mounted on deck, inboard, to run your safety harness on and to use as handholds.

Sorry, I thought you said instead of lifelines.

I have double lifelines, and they're netted, because my boat is NOT a blue water boat but I could still get caught in a nasty "storm" -- I use quotes for those who prefer that term used in a precise meteorlogical way. To me, a storm, is weather bad enough to make it very challenging to keep the boat and crew safe and uninjured.

But I still want my jackline really close to center -- too close to be used as handholds.

In other words, I'm arguing for both.

I sure would like to see a description of that fellow Trevor's boat and compare it to your description.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:50   #18
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Mine.

As she is tied to a dock.

and I live in a house.

Location is always key!
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:51   #19
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pirate Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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I know that there are many definitions of "blue water" and I also know that the sailor is the weakest link (and I'm guessing this has likely been discussed), but what single sailing vessel (make/size) would you personally want to be in under the worst conditions? (And no saying aircraft carrier).
With no parameters, bigger has to be better. Long and low and lean.

Next question?
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:49   #20
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

This has been discussed here recently and would seem to be a good base to build on.

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Old 12-05-2013, 08:51   #21
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pirate Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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With no parameters, bigger has to be better. Long and low and lean.

Next question?
Hmmm... tough one for me.. longest.. BR 54 ketch.. lowest n leanest Corribee 21.. assorted sizes and types in between..
Favourite in bad weather.. the Hurley 22 long fin.. may lack comfort (to some) but everything is manageable by one.. including chucking the mast over if it goes.. stove can be reached easily from the quarter berth minimising movement (major safety factor).
Excellent position of outboard well has prop as effective as an inboard.. it is in effect a proper 'mini Yacht'.
If your happy sitting down >< its a great little boat
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:56   #22
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pirate Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Hmmm... tough one for me.. longest.. BR 54 ketch.. lowest n leanest Corribee 21.. assorted sizes and types in between..
Favourite in bad weather.. the Hurley 22 long fin.. may lack comfort (to some) but everything is manageable by one.. including chucking the mast over if it goes.. stove can be reached easily from the quarter berth minimising movement (major safety factor).
Excellent position of outboard well has prop as effective as an inboard.. it is in effect a proper 'mini Yacht'.
If your happy sitting down >< its a great little boat
Agreed. Great little boat. And there are many of that ilk. Regardless of safety in size, I'd want to stay around 30 ft for physical reasons. I'd think unsinkability would be top o' my list. And fun to sail. A Newick Val 31 would be right at the top. For me. Fast, fun and room for one. Bluewater creds. Woo hoo!

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Old 12-05-2013, 11:37   #23
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Another good point which needs to be included in this discussion, is the ability of the ideal blue water boat to get out of the way of the advancing danger/storm. I don't really understand why so many stick to the old-school love affair with heavy, full keel, slow models which many times leave them to suffer riding out the worst of a storm, while other faster vessels were able to reach safety by either getting out of the way or reaching a safe harbor in time.

I'd say look at some of the major manufacturers like Halberg Rassey, Amel, Moody, Oyster, Tayana, Discovery and quite a few others. I'd even include some of the larger Beneteaus like the 58 or the Jeanneau 54ds because they're proven to be fast enough to get out of the way.

It's a stretch to say that a vessel that's build like a brick and sails about as good as a school bus is a good blue water boat.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:42   #24
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Another good point which needs to be included in this discussion, is the ability of the ideal blue water boat to get out of the way of the advancing danger/storm. I don't really understand why so many stick to the old-school love affair with heavy, full keel, slow models which many times leave them to suffer riding out the worst of a storm, while other faster vessels were able to reach safety by either getting out of the way or reaching a safe harbor in time.

I'd say look at some of the major manufacturers like Halberg Rassey, Amel, Moody, Oyster, Tayana, Discovery and quite a few others. I'd even include some of the larger Beneteaus like the 58 or the Jeanneau 54ds because they're proven to be fast enough to get out of the way.

It's a stretch to say that a vessel that's build like a brick and sails about as good as a school bus is a good blue water boat.

Well, I'm not sure about that. Where do you get to safety, and what if you get caught by the boat in shallow water, don't make it in time.

Around here, unless I were very sure I could outrun the boat, I would prepare to ride it out one way or another. A lot of the channels we have to safety are themselves shallow in places, particularly around the openings.

I would much rather be in deeper water. And, we're talking about blue water here -- where are they, 100 miles from shore? Can they really outrun whatever is headed their way? (Hopefully they checked the weather and aren't just sailing into a big system they could have missed by waiting a day or two).
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:52   #25
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Heavy doesn't necessarily mean slow, and sailing out of the way of a storm is highly overrated--look at how often the weather gurus get it all wrong and your immediate local weather doesn't even show up on the weather map half the time. Look at all the instances we read about where some very large boats have been caught offshore in bad stuff. The worst gale I have been in offshore was not predicted and didn't show on any weather source I could find after the fact. In any case, many of us can't afford or don't want a 50+ foot boat for other reasons. I prefer a boat that can be handled more easily by one or two crew.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:57   #26
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Heavy doesn't necessarily mean slow, and sailing out of the way of a storm is highly overrated--look at how often the weather gurus get it all wrong and your immediate local weather doesn't even show up on the weather map half the time. Look at all the instances we read about where some very large boats have been caught offshore in bad stuff. The worst gale I have been in offshore was not predicted and didn't show on any weather source I could find after the fact. In any case, many of us can't afford or don't want a 50+ foot boat for other reasons. I prefer a boat that can be handled more easily by one or two crew.

I wasn't IN it, thank goodness, but the worst storm I've seen was like that too. If you'd tried to outrace that storm and not made it you would have taken quite a beating in the surf.

I guess it depends on where you sail. Some places, the weather is more predictable, but they just can't say here where the two competing east and west winds are going to meet and kick up some stuff. Maybe you could catch the edge and it could push you away, but I would only try that here if it were going to push me away from the coast.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:12   #27
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

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Another good point which needs to be included in this discussion, is the ability of the ideal blue water boat to get out of the way of the advancing danger/storm. I don't really understand why so many stick to the old-school love affair with heavy, full keel, slow models which many times leave them to suffer riding out the worst of a storm, while other faster vessels were able to reach safety by either getting out of the way or reaching a safe harbor in time.
I've heard this oft-repeated here, but my "heavy, full keel" boat is no slower than any other displacement sailboat with the same waterline: 32'. (36.75' LOA). Unless you're considering surfing capabilities, hull speed for displacement boats is dependent on the same basic hydraulic physics, whether they be "old-school" or new-school.

Now, if you're saying some boats are under-powered, then that's a different issue. Some old boat designs are underpowered. Some new boat designs are underpowered. I've never seen any stats or facts regarding the proportion of underpowered boat designs in any given build era. Perhaps you have such info?

Seems to me what you're really saying is: get a big boat. Bigger is faster. Has very little to do with old vs new.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:26   #28
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Matt Rutherford solos the Americas non-stop, this guy (SY Rebellion - Home) goes around west about ... both "modified" Albin Vegas. Lots of Alberg 30's and Tritons making epic voyages too ... after being prepared for the task. Mostly, keep the water out and the rig/rudder in place! Some will argue, but it seems size has more to do with crew comfort than seaworthiness.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:38   #29
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Re: Worst Conditions Blue Water Boat

Guys, epic boats that did epic voyages, or roughing it like our ancestors did is not what this thread is about. Ideally, during this worst conditions storm, the crew would be drinking cocktails in comfort because the boat takes care of it all

Skeg-hung rudders? really?!!


Albin Vega? Alberg 30? really?!!

Anything below 50' will have a way tougher time than anything above that. I guess everybody would agree to that, yet the old oak ribbed 30 footers all get the usual blue water label again

I'd rather be in a 2005 Beneteau 50 than any of those.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:41   #30
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My Lord Nelson 35 handles a wide variety of adverse conditions in relative comfort.
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