Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-09-2013, 00:30   #1
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

Ciao from Italy,
we are looking to leave Sephina (lagoon 380 cat) for 6 months and my preference is to haul her out for the winter, but I am considering leaving her in the water as it's difficult to find a place to haul her out here (Italy, between Vieste and Brindisi)
What are the pro's and con's of hauling out/on the water.

Mine are

haul out pro's
better security
less risk of damage in bad weather
easier to antifoul and change saildrive oil next season
less risk of sinking!

haul out con's
cost (about 3000 eu)

on water pro's
cost (about 1500eu)

on water cons
less security
more risk of damage, sinking
more maintenance on return due to proximity to salt water
still need to haul out sometime to antifoul, change oil
probably need to run a dehumidifier?

Also, if wintering afloat the marina offers to check your boat if you provide a list of items you would like checked. What Items would you have on the list and how often would you have them check, fortnightly, monthly?
something like:

fortnightly checklist
start engines, run for 5 minutes, check exhaust water, with clear starting and stopping instructions (ps is this neccesary? )
check battery level is over 12.4V
check bilges
check mooring lines and fenders
email me with report

(please add any items you would want checked)

Thanks for any advice/ideas/experience you might have.

Monte
__________________

__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 03:16   #2
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,618
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

I would haul out.
You have covered most of the pros and cons. Damage from winter storms for boats on the water is not uncommon. Even on the hard boats are blown over ( not cats. ) so make sure your neighbours are propped up well.

Most of the European boats spend winter months on the hard. The other advantage that you have not mentioned is it reduces the risk of osmosis. European boats suffer much less than in countries where a yearly six months out of the water is not undertaken.
__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 03:31   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Westerly Oceanlord
Posts: 374
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

Possibly less of a risk in Italy, but further north being in the water can keep temperatures from dropping too much, so less risk of damage if you don't drain everything down.

In many marinas I would have said in-water security was better than out. No-one is going to steal your prop which can be a target for its scrap value.

In-water makes it easier to run the engine on a regular basis

Sitting still in the water for 6 months might not do your speed much good, so as you say, you'd probably still need to haul out for at least a pressure wash.

If you're going to run a dehumidifier, you'll need to be permanently plugged in which probably requires a galvanic isolator if you want any zinc left next spring. A paranoid person might worry about de-humidifier-caused fires.

Doesn't apply if you're going away from the boat for 6 months, but the biggest advantage to staying in is winter sailing when the crowds are all ashore.

I definitely intend spending winter afloat. But then again, the boat's been on the hard all summer :-(
__________________
muttnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 03:55   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Baltic Sea / Kiel Canal
Posts: 286
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

This may force your decision
__________________
Tellus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 04:06   #5
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,618
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

Don't let this put you off. The hard is still the safest for winter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	166.1 KB
ID:	67969  
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 04:14   #6
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

I am facing the same question myself, but I have a somewhat different list of pros and cons:

On the hard:

1. Stops consumption of antifoul and anodes.
2. Saves one or two lifts and scrubs.
3. Lets the hull dry out (there is some debate whether this is actually useful).
4. Allows you to do below waterline maintenance at your leisure.
5. You can leave the boat and forget about her for a few months if you like; no need to be there every few weeks to run the engine etc.

On the water:

1. Your boat is always ready to sail (I love to sail in the winter).
2. No need to drain down and winterize water system, toilets, engine raw water system, generator raw water system.
3. Engine and generator get some exercise over the winter.
4. Boat doesn't get frozen.
5. Cheaper, even considering the extra anodes, antifoul, scrubs.


My boat was on the hard last year for the first time in my ownership. An unusually large number of things were failed when I put her back in the water. It may be that I am imagining it, but it seems to me that things fail when they're not used for a few months. This never happened when I kept my boat in the water.


I guess I'm going to stay in this winter. For me, it looks like only extensive below-waterline maintenance would be a persuasive reason to come out, either that or if for some reason I need to be away from the boat for a few months.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 04:28   #7
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,618
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

Have a look at this video. Boats on in marinas do suffer damage in these sort of conditions even when their owners are on board. If leaving the boat during winter in Europe, out of the water is safer, if well propped up.

The video is also worth a look for those who casually discuss things like laying out a second anchor when a storm hits. (Note this was not well predicted most people were only expected about force 6-7)

Also if you don't believe a cruising cat can flipped with wind force alone and no sails have a look around 6:40

Lots of lessons

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 04:54   #8
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Have a look at this video. Boats on in marinas do suffer damage in these sort of conditions even when their owners are on board. If leaving the boat during winter in Europe, out of the water is safer, if well propped up.

The video is also worth a look for those who casually discuss things like laying out a second anchor when a storm hits.

Also if you don't believe a cruising cat can flipped with wind force alone have a look around 6:40
I think a tornado would be just as likely to flip boats on the hard, as in this vid.

Whether or not your boat is vulnerable to damage in a marina depends on how sheltered it is (same thing if it's on the hard, actually!). My boat spent her first two winters (in my ownership) in a marina up the Hamble. Tremendously good shelter from all sides, and I never heard of any boat ever having the slightest damage, despite the very severe weather we get here (62 knots sustained last May, for example).

Same thing for my mooring. It's several miles from the sea and surrounded by wooded hills, so I would never worry about her in a storm.

On the other hand, I did suffer some damage in Cowes Yacht Haven which is at the mouth of the Medina exposed to the Solent, exposed to the NE, which is the direction out of which most winter storms come from here. Fortunately, they are building a breakwater (hurra!), so I will worry less wintering over in this wonderful place.

So -- risk of damage really depends on where you are and what kind of shelter is offered. A lot of boats get damaged on the hard, by the way, and in case some damage does occur, it tends to be severe, so this point should not be neglected when choosing a place to lift out.

Noelex may be right that on the average being on the hard is safer (or maybe not, although I don't think I can ever remember Noelex ever being wrong about anything), specific cases will not necessarily conform to the average case.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 05:24   #9
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,618
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

In Italy most (all?) the marinas are not like typical marinas in say the USA where boats are docked onto finger berths.

Generally there is no berth. The boats are tied stern first too to a pier (with the boat at right angles to the pier) the bow is tied off to rope that leads to heavy chain with a couple of concrete blocks (serving 15-20 boats). The boats are tied up next to each other.

If the concrete block drags or the bow rope parts the stern is driven into the pier.

The advantage is a lot more boats can be fitted into a given space. The drawback is that it is less secure than finger pontoons. Given the reasonable probability of one storm over winter it is a gamble leaving the boat in the water.

Damage on the hard does also occur. Most of this can be eliminated with carefully preparation, but make sure the boats are held in good sturdy steel cradles.

Some marinas are much better than others. I am not familiar with the marinas around Vieste and Brindisi, but in some of the best rated marinas in Italy like Portorossa (which is in a canal like complex) I would be not uncomfortable leaving my boat for six months of the year over winter in the water, but as always these are personal decisions.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2013, 09:12   #10
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: wintering afloat or on the hard pro's and con's?

thanks guys, food for thought...I hadn;t thought about the zincs as well...definately leaning toward hauling out...
__________________

__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
loa, on the hard

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.