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Old 27-10-2012, 04:37   #31
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Well i know i have punished my Lewmar winch's both electric and manual ones.

They still look new and like they could pull a car from a bog.
So what's that mean?
Are they too heavy duty and slow my boat down?
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Old 27-10-2012, 08:08   #32
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Somehow i just do not get the argumentative line members take CLEARLY in the pictures provided there are 2 bent tailing arms and one straight, in the remaining picture the plastic shroud is distorted.

Yes it is a combination of bad usage along with crappy design, Don't shoot the messenger look and read before you make your pointed comments.

All builders have these as an option i just happened to be aboard a BENETEAU built vessel that had winches optioned/ticked by the buyer.

My service to this forum was to make people aware of these units....

Cheers
Maybe you shold have been more netrual in you comments, instead of flaming the manufacture for substandard winches. Especially as a boat builder and Surveyor.

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Of course i know, i have good quality ones on board our boat BUT my point to buyers of boat's whether new or old is check to see if fitted with these poor quality pretend winches......

Any metal given enough load will bend or fracture.

So your opinion that cast bronze would make it all better, may not be true, because you have no idea what kind of use or load these winches were put under to cause those damages.

You are blaming the manufacture for making cheap winches, but I would imagine, given the right load, any stripping arm will bend or fracture under a load it was never intended to take.

Under your theory we should just make everything out of heavy metals to prevent the stupid factor... I think that would be costly and unnecessary, if someone held the user accountable.

IMHO the Chaterer should have been held responsible for those damages and pay for them.

The Charter Company should also be smart enough to figure out what happened, so it doesn't keep happening to their other boats.
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Old 27-10-2012, 08:14   #33
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

it is all abut APPEARANCE. the consumer has befouled the market with demands regarding appearance so often and so much that there is a line specific for appearance. seems that was found for those winches. is good to know
..i will continue to use used goods..safer for my boat. i prefer function to be the focal point of the design of my tools and parts for my boat.
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Old 27-10-2012, 08:58   #34
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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The reference to Chinese manufacture is a little off centre however. The Chinese make excellent products providing they are given excellent specifications. It is not fair to blame Chinese manufacturers for poor quality products when it may well be a US company providing sub standard specifications which are designed to exploit a market with cheap products.
I'm not buying that one. I have worked in manufacturing for over 30 years. Yo can give them all the specs you want. My experience is that a good percentage of them will cut corners on quality rendering the design useless. I can't count how many times I have seen re-grind plastic used where virgin plastic was needed to be used. Or how many times one of their bushings would fail in half the time. Most vendors receiving their products do not have the where with all to analyze the failed product creating an endless reorder of a bad product. How many times in the news do we hear about lead paint on toys or tainted food products. Maybe not that often but would you want to be on the receiving end?
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Old 27-10-2012, 09:21   #35
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

Hey they look like my winches ! Dunno about quality but I think they're pretty

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Old 27-10-2012, 09:25   #36
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

I think it's pretty interesting to see all the references to cast parts as somehow better quality. Frankly we have more problems with cast parts than just about anything. And unlike stainless and bronze castings titanium has to be cast in a Vacuume, so we have significantly fewer trapped impurities then they do.

Frankly what I see here is a part that was not used according to its designed criteria, and failed because the part was used in a way that it wasn't designed to handle.

That being said, I think there is an issue that winches generally should be designed to take the type of abuse these seem to have suffered. And Harken does make such winches. They are heavier, and more expensive, but they can take this abuse without problems.

The real issue to me is the boat manufacturer used racing winches that were designed for specific applications but otherwise would be babied, and used them for a cruising/charter boat where the misuse was predictable.

As an example my carbon fiber spinnaker pole is absolutely babied. It never gets left out in the sun, is always stored in braces, only gets flown when experienced crew is on board, ect.. The aluminium however is abused and gets pressed into service for everything from lifting the dink, to being used as a diving board. Now if I used the CF for this it would likely break, because the safety margins aren't there. But so long as it is used as intended it will last forever.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:03   #37
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

Sorry Tom you 'just don't get it'....

Greg where do you get the idea these are 'RACING' winches? They are simply shoddy, there is no carbon fibre there is no Titanium they are cheap version winches no more and no less. Any raceboat that i've crewed on or with would break these before the 10 minute gun they are very simply day sailor winches definately not meant to be used hard.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:04   #38
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Hey they look like my winches ! Dunno about quality but I think they're pretty

Yep that's correct BUT in your hands they should be ok....Cheers
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:05   #39
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
it is all abut APPEARANCE. the consumer has befouled the market with demands regarding appearance so often and so much that there is a line specific for appearance. seems that was found for those winches. is good to know
..i will continue to use used goods..safer for my boat. i prefer function to be the focal point of the design of my tools and parts for my boat.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:42   #40
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Sorry Tom you 'just don't get it'....

Greg where do you get the idea these are 'RACING' winches? They are simply shoddy, there is no carbon fibre there is no Titanium they are cheap version winches no more and no less. Any raceboat that i've crewed on or with would break these before the 10 minute gun they are very simply day sailor winches definately not meant to be used hard.
You your right... I don't get why someone would bad mouth a product solely because they believe it should hold up better to someone improperly using it...
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:59   #41
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

Mate look at the pic's, read my words i stated fact, i have HARKEN and love it all BUT this time the gear does not live up to the environment they find themselves in.....
How dare i point out something to be wary of, how dare i!!!!!!!!!
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Old 27-10-2012, 11:14   #42
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Sorry Tom you 'just don't get it'....

Greg where do you get the idea these are 'RACING' winches? They are simply shoddy, there is no carbon fibre there is no Titanium they are cheap version winches no more and no less. Any raceboat that i've crewed on or with would break these before the 10 minute gun they are very simply day sailor winches definately not meant to be used hard.
I get the idea that they are racing winches from Harken. These are their radial line, which are aluminium drums, with composite skirts and jaws to save weight. Their advertising copy for this line actually discusses how much weight they save compared to their classic line of winches that replaces the aluminium with all stainless of bronze construction.

Then of course they have their polished bronze winches that are just rediculously pretty but heavier than an anchor. And their maxi race winches that use carbon fiber drums...


So why does a charter boat have these winches? Because they are about half the price of the classics. Roughly $2,200 for a classic 32 vs $970 for the radial 35's.
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Old 27-10-2012, 11:20   #43
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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I get the idea that they are racing winches from Harken. These are their radial line, which are aluminium drums, with composite skirts and jaws to save weight. Their advertising copy for this line actually discusses how much weight they save compared to their classic line of winches that replaces the aluminium with all stainless of bronze construction.

Then of course they have their polished bronze winches that are just rediculously pretty but heavier than an anchor. And their maxi race winches that use carbon fiber drums...


So why does a charter boat have these winches? Because they are about half the price of the classics. Roughly $2,200 for a classic 32 vs $970 for the radial 35's.
There it is PRICE, if the gears, drum and stripper were Titanium with a composite base i'd say yep they are for a racing boat and if were put on a cruiser they'd likely last forever but alas they are not.

Pressed soft 316 sheet and thermoplastic needs some care, a cheap price for a cheap winch that'll likely need many spares sold through the dealers, don't cut it.....

Cheers
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Old 27-10-2012, 11:20   #44
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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You your right... I don't get why someone would bad mouth a product solely because they believe it should hold up better to someone improperly using it...
Please apply this thinking to the air transport industry. If a mechanism on an airliner was adequately designed to work under normal conditions but not abuse, I would not want to ba a passenger on that plane. As long as you have the human condition, you will have mistakes and abuse.
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Old 27-10-2012, 11:23   #45
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Please apply this thinking to the air transport industry. If a mechanism on an airliner was adequately designed to work under normal conditions but not abuse, I would not want to ba a passenger on that plane. As long as you have the human condition, you will have mistakes and abuse.
I think Toms comments were why Ralph Nader did what he did, there are non so blind than those that will not see.....
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