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Old 26-10-2012, 15:30   #16
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
What it looks like to me is operator error. I have used the plastic base Harkens for years without a problem on our race boat, and never had an issue. Including snatch loading one when the turning block on the spinnaker disintegrated in 40kn of breeze.

I am absolutely guessing that what happened here was someone put a dockline around the winch base, and crushed it.

Same goes for the stripper arm.


The downside to highly engineered products is that they are built to be as strong as they need to be, but not typically designed to handle unexpected usage. Just like my screw drivers keep bending when I use them as pry bars... I could blame the manufacturer for not building them strong enough. Or I could take some personal responsibility and blame myself for using them in a way they were never intended.
Charterers often get confused when the wrap a winch often laying the sheet on the wrong way and releasing the load. Where these are it's unlikely a dockline was involved.

Buyers tick their choices when purchasing their proposed charter boat believing all is good and the gear substantial ie 'fit for purpose'. My point of this thread is to make prospective buyers aware.

My Post 12# concurs with your point, if in hands of owner user then ok BUT in the situation/usage i found these in they are not suitable..

Cheers
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Old 26-10-2012, 15:40   #17
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
CELESTIAL The tailing arms are 2mm thick pressed stainless steel not cast bronze/chromed as is more usual Cast bronze arms are solid. The damage on these winches is on a 2yr old charter boat.

I have seen another on it's second charter with the same damage to one winch.

The facts are shown in the pictures the tailing arms are bent and the plastic base overheated and crushed by a sheet being run incorrectly.

The tailing arms can be bent with a pair of pliers.

Stainless pressed metal is soft that's the nature of the metal.

We have Harken all over our boat it is very good as i said the have always had a very good race name.

These winches differ totally from their normal quality i do not and did not imply that they are a 'RACE' product.

BASH there is no damage to the drum JUST the plastic shroud to the base and tailing arms read my posting.....

MARK Every aluminium yacht i've built we put plastic insulators between winch base and mount....Photo's show the bent arms how do you regard that as personal feelings???? Engineering data wtf? LOOK AT THE PIC'S!!!!

The winches are fitted to a standard charter boat they are not suitable for that purpose, should anyone be purchasing a boat to go into charter they need to consider this type of damage caused by likely inexperienced operators in a very short time span.

Personally i was shocked by what i saw i'd hate to be paying for replacements.

Cheers
From the pictures, I cannot tell that the tailing arm is bent.

When you mentioned plastic base, I imagined an actual composite base, not a shroud trimming. That is why I thought of aluminum boats and race boats.

A plastic shroud over the metal drum does not seem like a quality issue any more than corroded chrome would be. Damage to that shroud may not look pretty, but does not effect the winch any more than corroded chrome does.

Again, why are you bashing Harken for this. Your original post was about how Harken no longer makes quality winches and that modern winch designs in general have failed us. Nothing you have posted supports that and the fact is that Harken make a whole range of winches for multiple applications - including ones just like the ones on your boat along with the ones you are posting about. And high-tech carbon ones. Again, a whole range.

Lagoon spec'd and installed the winches. Your thread should be about how Lagoon has failed, since the failure is squarely theirs. Obviously, they just don't cut it anymore...

Mark
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Old 26-10-2012, 15:44   #18
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
CELESTIAL The tailing arms are 2mm thick pressed stainless steel not cast bronze/chromed as is more usual Cast bronze arms are solid.
Sorry...I missed that. In that case I will agree with whole-heartedly, it's an attempt to cheapen up their product. That's too bad. But considering some of the newer "bar of soap" designs that sit in their slips as floating condo's, it probably makes little difference.
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Old 26-10-2012, 16:14   #19
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

It is obvious that someone did something that the winches were not designed to do...

Also why is it Harken's fault that the winches were on a charter boat? Why aren't you hammering the buildinder or the idiot who improperly used the winches to begin with?

If they bent the stripper arm, even if it is pressed stainless, they used the winch improperly... There should be very little pressure on the stripper arm if the the proper number of turns were placed on the winch drum to begin with.

I also don't know how you can say it is because of pressed stainless, since you have no idea what they did to bend those strippers or what load they took before they bent? If I had to guess, iIt looks like someone put a load across the bar itself, maybe using it as a fairlead to the other winch.


Since three of the strippers are bent on two seperate boats, it sounds like someone should be trying to figure out the common mistake by the charterers and trying to correct it.

As for the damage to the base, there had to be some serious chafe or fiction on the base of the winch. What was a line doing around the base of the winch?

Again, you have no idea what happened so you are blaming the composite material...

Your one point is valid... No matter what component it is or how well made, stuff gets broken, bent and burned on CHARTER BOATS a lot more than privately owned ones.
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Old 26-10-2012, 16:56   #20
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

No matter how the winches were damaged...through stupidity or misuse, you could probably say that if the were cast, that would not have happened. Redundancy is important on a sailboat.
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Old 27-10-2012, 02:18   #21
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
No matter how the winches were damaged...through stupidity or misuse, you could probably say that if the were cast, that would not have happened. Redundancy is important on a sailboat.
Your line of thinking is if it were stronger it would not have been damaged...

My line is if they had used it properly it wouldn't have been damaged

TIE SCORE
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Old 27-10-2012, 02:41   #22
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

Somehow i just do not get the argumentative line members take CLEARLY in the pictures provided there are 2 bent tailing arms and one straight, in the remaining picture the plastic shroud is distorted.

Yes it is a combination of bad usage along with crappy design, Don't shoot the messenger look and read before you make your pointed comments.

All builders have these as an option i just happened to be aboard a BENETEAU built vessel that had winches optioned/ticked by the buyer.

My service to this forum was to make people aware of these units....

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Old 27-10-2012, 03:12   #23
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
The winches are fitted to a standard charter boat they are not suitable for that purpose, should anyone be purchasing a boat to go into charter they need to consider this type of damage caused by likely inexperienced operators in a very short time span.
Just curious as to whether that was on a Private Owner specced charter boat (who may have not understood the things that really need to be idiot proof) - or from a fleet operated by one of the main charter companies (who IMO should have known better, unless of course replacing the odd winch does actually work out cheaper than higher spec winches on every boat).

Personally I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the winches / spec - the old adage, yer get what you pay for springs to my mind. For a Private boat (where the owner is not a complete idiot) I suspect the problems would not arise.
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Old 27-10-2012, 03:15   #24
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

My point exactly hence the heads up...
A boat purchased and put into charter under a small companies umbrella.
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Old 27-10-2012, 03:24   #25
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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My point exactly hence the heads up...
A boat purchased and put into charter under a small companies umbrella.
That probably explains it (be interesting to know what Moorings / Sunsail fit). Likely also some private owner input into the spec - mostly on price!

Nonetheless a useful cautionary heads up . (on some things you do get what you pay for).

I make no criticism of Harken for providing what the market actually wants - and not simply what the market says it wants. The boat industry is littered with companies that listened to folks who said they wanted "the best", but nonetheless when it came to putting hand in pocket shopped elsewhere - for "good enough".
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Old 27-10-2012, 03:29   #26
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

Agree as i said we love our Harken our whole boat is equipped with Harken gear......
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Old 27-10-2012, 03:45   #27
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

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Yay someone who doesn't shoot the messenger!!!!!

They are probably acceptable as a cheap alternative in the hands of an owner user.

I wonder if they are of different manufacture ie chinese?

Cheers Frank
Obviously the fitted winches are unsuitable for the purpose on this particular boat. No amount of engineering talk will change the fact that they are busted!

The reference to Chinese manufacture is a little off centre however. The Chinese make excellent products providing they are given excellent specifications. It is not fair to blame Chinese manufacturers for poor quality products when it may well be a US company providing sub standard specifications which are designed to exploit a market with cheap products.

The Chinese, as with the Japanese before them (when Japanese labour was cheap) make things exactly according to supplied specifications.
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Old 27-10-2012, 03:58   #28
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

K-mart is full of all kinds of cheap, if you like/rather Asian manufactured products, yes there are good Asian manufactured products and there are bad.

HARKEN have always been about quality and endurance these winches as i said before resemble quality however only in appearance. A good analogy would be in motor vehicles particularly say early KIA's they looked the part BUT don't let your kid's bounce a ball on one the panel metal was sardine can like.

You know if i was about to buy a boat to put into charter and i read this thread i'd check what winches we would fit. That's what sharing knowledge is about.

Yes an owner can look after this style of winch and they'll survive, our HARKENS are indestructible...well almost :-)

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Old 27-10-2012, 04:12   #29
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You can talk about what is suitable for a specific application etc.
On a jeanneau 409 that had never left the dock the base of one of these winch's was stuffed even before handover.
That to me means it's not fit for the intended purpose.
Should my mate insist all his winch's are changed to a type that will last at least a month?
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Old 27-10-2012, 04:20   #30
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Re: Winches How Modern Design Has Failed Us....

No apparently you blame Jeanneau!!!!! Oh hang on they are not Lagoon tell him to blame me for bringing it to the attention of the Forum.......

These have been fitted to many boats now and there are disappointed owners as well. I showed one of LAGOONS major dealers from AUSTRIA he was shocked at the cheapness and will be bringing the subject up at a dealers meeting soon, he took photo's as well.

Cheers it's getting cold here!!!!!
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