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09-07-2015, 21:08
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Hi,
I downloaded the chartlet from Queensland Maritime, calibrated it for the computer and overlaid my previous tracks. It is really not much different from the previous times. But it is wise to contact air sea rescue for conditions and waypoints.
Cheers
fnoldsalt
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09-07-2015, 22:05
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: On my boat
Boat: Roberts 53, Love of Gaia
Posts: 90
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0urh
So is it possible to safely/easily cross the wide bay bar without a gps or chart plotter. ie. by just using 'line of sight'?
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The word "safely" and "Wide-Bay Bar" may not be used in the same sentence under ANY conditions.
There is a photo in Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron in Manly of a raceboat up in the air with the bulb of the keel showing.
The caption reads "Wide Bar Bar. No Wind".
The run in between the waypoints alongside the sandbar is nasty and long but VMR told me it is the actual bar at sea that is the real killer. Waves come from multiple directions simultaneously so "rogue" waves are normal not unusual.
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09-07-2015, 23:16
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by yttrill
The word "safely" and "Wide-Bay Bar" may not be used in the same sentence under ANY conditions.
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Really? How about this: Over the past several years, we have safely crossed the wide bay bar many times.
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09-07-2015, 23:21
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
And as to doing it in the dark... well, a friend of ours did in his lightwave 38 a few years ago. Caught a big wave, surfing at over 16 knots, he stuck a bow into the sandy bottom and pitchpoled. He says he was right on the leads... but of course could not see any wave action ahead of him. Lost the rig, of course, but suffered surprisingly little structural damage. Not a really good practice IMO!
Jim
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There's a very persistent rumour around that that boat wasn't in fact using the leads. The story goes that it was attempting a shortcut, in what is sometimes called the fisherman's channel.
Generally, the main channel, especially at high tide, is quite deep.
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09-07-2015, 23:37
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#35
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,135
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
There's a very persistent rumour around that that boat wasn't in fact using the leads. The story goes that it was attempting a shortcut, in what is sometimes called the fisherman's channel.
Generally, the main channel, especially at high tide, is quite deep.
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Yeah, rumours... I dunno, 'cause I wasn't there, but while the skipper of that boat is quite a cocky fellow at times, I can't believe that he, or anyone for that matter, would use that unmarked channel in the dark.
And the "main" channel is indeed deep for most of its length, but when crossing the actual bar, the depths diminish to something on the order of 3 m or less. I guess I can believe that if surfing down a BIG breaking wave, and bottoming out in the trough, forcing the bows down with all your momentum, one could stick a bow into the sand... especially if one was a bit off line. I did see the marks on the knuckle of the bow where it looked like it had grounded... but as I said, i wasn't there! The owners wife did write an article for Cruising Helmsman describing the experience for those interested. Don't remember the date, though.
But for the worry warts, remember that dozens of boats cross the bar in a typical week, and a rather small proportion get into trouble.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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09-07-2015, 23:38
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: On my boat
Boat: Roberts 53, Love of Gaia
Posts: 90
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
Really? How about this: Over the past several years, we have safely crossed the wide bay bar many times.
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Just because you have a 100% success achieving a risky goal does not mean it was safe. Of course safety is a matter of probabilities and outcomes (Risk and Hazard). Entering ANY port involves risk. Even one considered relatively safe such as Sydney Harbour: some years ago I came in and my French crew with not too good English said a boat was approaching from Manly, I looked and it seemed a long way off... 60 seconds later a Navy patrol boat passed 5 metres in front of my bows at 30 knots..
Wide Bay is notorious. East coast OZ, probably only Narooma is worse. My point really is, some bars like Southport and usually pretty safe, although they're seriously bad in the wrong conditions. Wide Bay is NEVER safe, in any conditions.
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09-07-2015, 23:40
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hervey Bay Qld Australia
Boat: currently boatless
Posts: 695
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon. The present Co-ordinates are correct but you need to have turning mark (B) a good 50 to 100 metres clear on its north side as it is near a sandbar. The turn and run across the mad mile is still fun. While you are in a deep channel the waves will stand up and smack the side of your boat. Today was a relatively calm day with no actual breakers over the bar itself.
Personally I would not cross the wide bay bar at night. The lowest depth we saw crossing the bar proper was 5 metres. This was on a 1.7 metre tide in the last two hours of the rising tide. We crossed at 2pm having left Mooloolaba at 5am with no dramas with the sun. Mind you it rained for a lot of the trip :roll eyes:. It was funny that we saw no one when coming up the coast but as we appoached all these other boats appeared out of no where and followed as across the bart. More fool them if they thought we knew what we were doing :big grin:
Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Lagoon 410S2
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09-07-2015, 23:47
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
Yeah, rumours... I dunno, 'cause I wasn't there, but while the skipper of that boat is quite a cocky fellow at times, I can't believe that he, or anyone for that matter, would use that unmarked channel in the dark.
And the "main" channel is indeed deep for most of its length, but when crossing the actual bar, the depths diminish to something on the order of 3 m or less. I guess I can believe that if surfing down a BIG breaking wave, and bottoming out in the trough, forcing the bows down with all your momentum, one could stick a bow into the sand... especially if one was a bit off line. I did see the marks on the knuckle of the bow where it looked like it had grounded... but as I said, i wasn't there! The owners wife did write an article for Cruising Helmsman describing the experience for those interested. Don't remember the date, though.
Jim
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I can't say I've seen less than about 4 - 4.5 metres. Then again, it's always pretty much high tide when we cross.
I did read the CH article, and to be honest, I couldn't work out why someone would leave Mooloolaba at a time that would see them arriving at WBB at around 1 am, and low tide at that...
People do some (what seems to us) weird stuff... if you're gonna arrive at low tide, in the dark, why not try the short cut too?
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09-07-2015, 23:58
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozsailer
Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon. The present Co-ordinates are correct but you need to have turning mark (B) a good 50 to 100 metres clear on its north side as it is near a sandbar. The turn and run across the mad mile is still fun. While you are in a deep channel the waves will stand up and smack the side of your boat. Today was a relatively calm day with no actual breakers over the bar itself.
Personally I would not cross the wide bay bar at night. The lowest depth we saw crossing the bar proper was 5 metres. This was on a 1.7 metre tide in the last two hours of the rising tide. We crossed at 2pm having left Mooloolaba at 5am with no dramas with the sun. Mind you it rained for a lot of the trip :roll eyes:. It was funny that we saw no one when coming up the coast but as we appoached all these other boats appeared out of no where and followed as across the bart. More fool them if they thought we knew what we were doing :big grin:
Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Lagoon 410S2
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Congrats on safely crossing the Wide Bay Bar!
On thing I did mean to say before - for WBB, don't use the tide data for Elbow point. Use Waddy point. Even though Elbow point is closer.
Reality is, the times are pretty much the same, but Waddy (and the WBB) have a smaller range.
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09-07-2015, 23:59
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#40
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now skippering Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,557
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozsailer
Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon.
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Glad you're safely tucked inside...
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10-07-2015, 00:08
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#41
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Yttril, et al,
I have to disagree with you about WBB. There have been times, though, when we've waited a few days for it to settle, but mostly, it's pretty tame.
I do agree Narooma can be tricky with a 2.2m draft. I actually believe--no proof, mind you, but based on word of boats lost--that the Ballina Bar may have claimed the most. And yet, I know people who've gone in and out of there with no apparent problems.
You gotta remember, the fishermen used to go out of WBB, long before there was even satnav. They used the available nav aids, and piloting skills.
The 1/2 tide or better on the rising tide is probably the very best time of all. All of these coastal areas that have large amounts of impounded water on the inside of their bars will have a considerable period of runout after low water, which will make the waves peaky if the wind's against the water flow.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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10-07-2015, 00:11
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#42
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
In recent years we've found it necessary to go a hundred metres or so PAST the point where the Inskip point leads line up, before turning SW.
As you get further in, you can gradually steer back onto the line of them.
Main thing is, use the leads as a GUIDE, but keep your eyes open and steer away from breaking water.
I wouldn't even consider crossing WBB in the dark. It would be a lottery.
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Absolutely, great advice.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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10-07-2015, 02:52
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sunshine Coast Hinterland
Boat: Seawind 1200 TEC 3
Posts: 430
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?
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10-07-2015, 03:24
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko
I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?
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I suspect Maritime Safety Queensland do not update the information sufficiently often enough to maintain currency bearing in mind the fluctuating nature of coastal bars. As such, there is a lag time between actual need for a change in the WPT and the publication thereof. In the meantime, the VMR radio stations are restricted by virtue of their "legal" responsibility to only broadcast the official (and potentially outdated) WPT data, although they know it is incorrect. Hence they may allude to a minor course deviation, but cannot broadcast the a WPT position that is not official.
In respect of depths, at the time of my last crossing on the lower half of the tide, at one time I had only 2.5m between WPT 1 and 2. There was low and slow rolling surf that I had to punch through. In retrospect, I suspect I was somewhat west of the new optimal course but I could not see an alternate surf free path. I can imagine it could get pretty ugly in the wrong weather.
As others have reported, over the last 20 years, I've crossed the bar perhaps 16 times and never encountered serious trouble (16 times lucky perhaps). Heading out however in 1995 in my then 37' power cat, a 2-3m wave came from nowhere between 1 and 2, and looked like breaking. I was too slow to thottle back before the crest and 8000kg flew gracefully if only briefly through the air. Several bottles of my finest wine crashed out of the rack and made as much mess in the boat as I found in my undies!
__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
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10-07-2015, 03:58
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: On my boat
Boat: Roberts 53, Love of Gaia
Posts: 90
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko
I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?
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Liability, the bane of modern western civilisation. Its the same with the weather.
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