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Old 09-07-2015, 22:08   #31
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

Hi,
I downloaded the chartlet from Queensland Maritime, calibrated it for the computer and overlaid my previous tracks. It is really not much different from the previous times. But it is wise to contact air sea rescue for conditions and waypoints.
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Old 09-07-2015, 23:05   #32
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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So is it possible to safely/easily cross the wide bay bar without a gps or chart plotter. ie. by just using 'line of sight'?
The word "safely" and "Wide-Bay Bar" may not be used in the same sentence under ANY conditions.

There is a photo in Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron in Manly of a raceboat up in the air with the bulb of the keel showing.

The caption reads "Wide Bar Bar. No Wind".

The run in between the waypoints alongside the sandbar is nasty and long but VMR told me it is the actual bar at sea that is the real killer. Waves come from multiple directions simultaneously so "rogue" waves are normal not unusual.
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:16   #33
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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The word "safely" and "Wide-Bay Bar" may not be used in the same sentence under ANY conditions.

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Really? How about this: Over the past several years, we have safely crossed the wide bay bar many times.
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:21   #34
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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And as to doing it in the dark... well, a friend of ours did in his lightwave 38 a few years ago. Caught a big wave, surfing at over 16 knots, he stuck a bow into the sandy bottom and pitchpoled. He says he was right on the leads... but of course could not see any wave action ahead of him. Lost the rig, of course, but suffered surprisingly little structural damage. Not a really good practice IMO!

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There's a very persistent rumour around that that boat wasn't in fact using the leads. The story goes that it was attempting a shortcut, in what is sometimes called the fisherman's channel.

Generally, the main channel, especially at high tide, is quite deep.
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:37   #35
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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There's a very persistent rumour around that that boat wasn't in fact using the leads. The story goes that it was attempting a shortcut, in what is sometimes called the fisherman's channel.

Generally, the main channel, especially at high tide, is quite deep.
Yeah, rumours... I dunno, 'cause I wasn't there, but while the skipper of that boat is quite a cocky fellow at times, I can't believe that he, or anyone for that matter, would use that unmarked channel in the dark.

And the "main" channel is indeed deep for most of its length, but when crossing the actual bar, the depths diminish to something on the order of 3 m or less. I guess I can believe that if surfing down a BIG breaking wave, and bottoming out in the trough, forcing the bows down with all your momentum, one could stick a bow into the sand... especially if one was a bit off line. I did see the marks on the knuckle of the bow where it looked like it had grounded... but as I said, i wasn't there! The owners wife did write an article for Cruising Helmsman describing the experience for those interested. Don't remember the date, though.

But for the worry warts, remember that dozens of boats cross the bar in a typical week, and a rather small proportion get into trouble.

Jim
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:38   #36
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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Really? How about this: Over the past several years, we have safely crossed the wide bay bar many times.
Just because you have a 100% success achieving a risky goal does not mean it was safe. Of course safety is a matter of probabilities and outcomes (Risk and Hazard). Entering ANY port involves risk. Even one considered relatively safe such as Sydney Harbour: some years ago I came in and my French crew with not too good English said a boat was approaching from Manly, I looked and it seemed a long way off... 60 seconds later a Navy patrol boat passed 5 metres in front of my bows at 30 knots..

Wide Bay is notorious. East coast OZ, probably only Narooma is worse. My point really is, some bars like Southport and usually pretty safe, although they're seriously bad in the wrong conditions. Wide Bay is NEVER safe, in any conditions.
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:40   #37
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon. The present Co-ordinates are correct but you need to have turning mark (B) a good 50 to 100 metres clear on its north side as it is near a sandbar. The turn and run across the mad mile is still fun. While you are in a deep channel the waves will stand up and smack the side of your boat. Today was a relatively calm day with no actual breakers over the bar itself.
Personally I would not cross the wide bay bar at night. The lowest depth we saw crossing the bar proper was 5 metres. This was on a 1.7 metre tide in the last two hours of the rising tide. We crossed at 2pm having left Mooloolaba at 5am with no dramas with the sun. Mind you it rained for a lot of the trip :roll eyes:. It was funny that we saw no one when coming up the coast but as we appoached all these other boats appeared out of no where and followed as across the bart. More fool them if they thought we knew what we were doing :big grin:



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Old 10-07-2015, 00:47   #38
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Yeah, rumours... I dunno, 'cause I wasn't there, but while the skipper of that boat is quite a cocky fellow at times, I can't believe that he, or anyone for that matter, would use that unmarked channel in the dark.

And the "main" channel is indeed deep for most of its length, but when crossing the actual bar, the depths diminish to something on the order of 3 m or less. I guess I can believe that if surfing down a BIG breaking wave, and bottoming out in the trough, forcing the bows down with all your momentum, one could stick a bow into the sand... especially if one was a bit off line. I did see the marks on the knuckle of the bow where it looked like it had grounded... but as I said, i wasn't there! The owners wife did write an article for Cruising Helmsman describing the experience for those interested. Don't remember the date, though.

Jim

\


I can't say I've seen less than about 4 - 4.5 metres. Then again, it's always pretty much high tide when we cross.


I did read the CH article, and to be honest, I couldn't work out why someone would leave Mooloolaba at a time that would see them arriving at WBB at around 1 am, and low tide at that...


People do some (what seems to us) weird stuff... if you're gonna arrive at low tide, in the dark, why not try the short cut too?
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:58   #39
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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Originally Posted by ozsailer View Post
Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon. The present Co-ordinates are correct but you need to have turning mark (B) a good 50 to 100 metres clear on its north side as it is near a sandbar. The turn and run across the mad mile is still fun. While you are in a deep channel the waves will stand up and smack the side of your boat. Today was a relatively calm day with no actual breakers over the bar itself.
Personally I would not cross the wide bay bar at night. The lowest depth we saw crossing the bar proper was 5 metres. This was on a 1.7 metre tide in the last two hours of the rising tide. We crossed at 2pm having left Mooloolaba at 5am with no dramas with the sun. Mind you it rained for a lot of the trip :roll eyes:. It was funny that we saw no one when coming up the coast but as we appoached all these other boats appeared out of no where and followed as across the bart. More fool them if they thought we knew what we were doing :big grin:



Greg and Sue
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Congrats on safely crossing the Wide Bay Bar!

On thing I did mean to say before - for WBB, don't use the tide data for Elbow point. Use Waddy point. Even though Elbow point is closer.

Reality is, the times are pretty much the same, but Waddy (and the WBB) have a smaller range.
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Old 10-07-2015, 00:59   #40
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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Hello all,
well the admiral and I are currently anchored at the Southern End of Fraser Island having just crossed the Wide Bay Bar earlier this afternoon.
Glad you're safely tucked inside...
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:08   #41
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

Yttril, et al,

I have to disagree with you about WBB. There have been times, though, when we've waited a few days for it to settle, but mostly, it's pretty tame.

I do agree Narooma can be tricky with a 2.2m draft. I actually believe--no proof, mind you, but based on word of boats lost--that the Ballina Bar may have claimed the most. And yet, I know people who've gone in and out of there with no apparent problems.

You gotta remember, the fishermen used to go out of WBB, long before there was even satnav. They used the available nav aids, and piloting skills.

The 1/2 tide or better on the rising tide is probably the very best time of all. All of these coastal areas that have large amounts of impounded water on the inside of their bars will have a considerable period of runout after low water, which will make the waves peaky if the wind's against the water flow.

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Old 10-07-2015, 01:11   #42
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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In recent years we've found it necessary to go a hundred metres or so PAST the point where the Inskip point leads line up, before turning SW.
As you get further in, you can gradually steer back onto the line of them.

Main thing is, use the leads as a GUIDE, but keep your eyes open and steer away from breaking water.

I wouldn't even consider crossing WBB in the dark. It would be a lottery.
Absolutely, great advice.

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Old 10-07-2015, 03:52   #43
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:24   #44
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?

I suspect Maritime Safety Queensland do not update the information sufficiently often enough to maintain currency bearing in mind the fluctuating nature of coastal bars. As such, there is a lag time between actual need for a change in the WPT and the publication thereof. In the meantime, the VMR radio stations are restricted by virtue of their "legal" responsibility to only broadcast the official (and potentially outdated) WPT data, although they know it is incorrect. Hence they may allude to a minor course deviation, but cannot broadcast the a WPT position that is not official.

In respect of depths, at the time of my last crossing on the lower half of the tide, at one time I had only 2.5m between WPT 1 and 2. There was low and slow rolling surf that I had to punch through. In retrospect, I suspect I was somewhat west of the new optimal course but I could not see an alternate surf free path. I can imagine it could get pretty ugly in the wrong weather.

As others have reported, over the last 20 years, I've crossed the bar perhaps 16 times and never encountered serious trouble (16 times lucky perhaps). Heading out however in 1995 in my then 37' power cat, a 2-3m wave came from nowhere between 1 and 2, and looked like breaking. I was too slow to thottle back before the crest and 8000kg flew gracefully if only briefly through the air. Several bottles of my finest wine crashed out of the rack and made as much mess in the boat as I found in my undies!
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:58   #45
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Re: Wide Bay Bar: Waypoints and Navionics errors

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I know I have read here before and did not understand it then or now so can someone set this dummy straight as to why the waypoints that are published are actually wrong.What I mean is you are advised "these are the coords but stay 100 mtrs North etc."
Why not the correct data?
Liability, the bane of modern western civilisation. Its the same with the weather.
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