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Old 05-01-2016, 19:35   #76
er9
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
The surveyor should be working for you and not the broker. I assume you're paying for the survey.

Do not let a broker dictate suspicious terms like this.

If you are paying for the survey you own the report. The broker has no right to the survey report unless you gift or sell it to him.

I also pay the surveyor direct and not through the broker.

Finally we had a buyers broker. This means he works for us. I wasnt interested in dealing with the sellers broker. He is incentivized to keep the price high.

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i made sure to pick my own surveyor. i absolutely want it done by someone with my best interest in mind. definately a conflict of interest when a broker picks the surveyor. i wanted no part of that.
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Old 05-01-2016, 19:38   #77
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Originally Posted by faa50
Hi Going Walkabout - well said!!!!

Being a free-market-place kinda of guy, I prefer less legislation than more. Having said that, there is an important role for government. Requisite legislation that provides market place safeguards that we are unable to provide for ourselves and benefits society as a whole.

Market influences ensure these type of regulations are extremely difficult to write so as not to incur unintended consequences. And then there is the enforcement piece, but try we must. It can be done - this is probably what they mean about an evolving society.

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Old 05-01-2016, 19:39   #78
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Withhold the agreed purchase price information from the surveyor prior to their performing and delivering the finished report. There is no valid reason why a surveyor needs this information apriori to perform the task hired. Providing this information apriori, can diminish the value of the surveyor's report - human nature being what it is, this could influence the findings and ultimate valuation established by the surveyor. A biased influence, even if subtle, could take hold. More importantly you may never know if it did.

It is typically beneficial to a buyer of the survey report (don't see any issue not to share this information with the surveyor post the report findings). Hold a discussion with the surveyor to explore and explain any significant gaps between the surveyor's valuation and the agreed purchase price.

There can a variety of valid reasons for a significant difference between a surveyor's valuation and the agreed purchase price - excluding incompetence of the surveyor.

For instance, I was recently alerted to the fact that a Island Packet 45 currently for sale the owners were preparing to significantly reduce the asking price. Some due diligence on my part uncovered that due to a personal relationship which has recently reached a breaking point, the owners desperately wanted to get rid of the boat quickly. Situations like this are infrequent, but do occur, just as unforeseen medical issues require a "fire sale." price.

A purchase price based on these facts would typically be beneath a surveyor's valuation and explain the gap. In this case I hadn't shared the agreed purchase price with the surveyor and allowed him to do his job with this influence.

As expected his valuation came in higher than the agreed price. This information confirmed the value I placed on this seller's situation and my expectation that discount I had negotiated given the unique situation. I also knew that this information had not inadvertently "tainted" my surveyor's assessment. Now, instead of having possession of one piece of market price information I had two very informative pieces.

As a closing note, my surveyor appreciated my withholding the information and felt his valuation was validated by my independently negotiated purchase price that reflected abnormal selling pressures. Who didn't appreciate me withholding the information - both the listing broker and my own buyer's broker Go figure!
very good points...thank you. my surveyor doesn't even want to know for the exact reasons you stated. good sign...
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Old 05-01-2016, 19:49   #79
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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First off, I am a Broker.... Semper Fi, Willy
much thanks for your valued input....good to hear a brokers point of view.
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Old 05-01-2016, 19:52   #80
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Your surveyor works for you and gives you the information to go no go. Tell him everything you know about the boat. As far as the seller broker fudging the figures on boat sails, well I think the tax man would love that.

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Old 05-01-2016, 20:01   #81
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Totally agree, hiring a surveyor that you don't trust is a fools errand. The salient issue is not about trust but instead human nature to influences that are difficult to control. If I were a professional surveyor, I would prefer to learn the agreed price after conducting the survey not before. I also understand to each his own and I'm totally "cool" with that.

Being new to buying a boat, I make a point to personally inspect each boat (spending hour or two onboard) prior to entertaining engaging a surveyor. I take a copious amount of notes, for my own education and later follow up. I then attend the survey and encourage the surveyor to educate and teach me as they conduct the survey.

As I've progressed in my learning, I'm now identify many more issues that line up with what a surveyor identifies, but not all as I'm unable to turn on the electronics or engines.

This due diligence process I've found beneficial to my learning curve, but I understand this process takes time is not attractive nor may work for others.

Items identified during an initial inspection I share with the surveyor as we together proceed through the boat. My list is not used as a "gotcha" Oftentimes, items initially identified are simply rectified or not nearly as important or expensive to repair as I had imagined. This is a valuable benefit of having a great surveyor who is interested in teaching. Not all are.
good stuff that is exactly what i have done and will be shadowing the surveyor next week.
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Old 05-01-2016, 20:18   #82
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Well, maybe this is a bit of topic drift but I read all of this and I still don't know how to tell - not even within say 50% - if I am paying the "fair market value" of a boat.

Watching Yachtworld, I see that boats offered at the average asking price for sisterships of the same year and equipment generally do not seem to sell. They just sit on the market.

Boats offered at about 1/2 the asking price of sister boats DO sell - though even then, by no means instantly or certainly.

A few boats at around the average asking price do sell. It's by far the exception rather than the rule.

Obviously, there is always interest in a "bargain" but there is less interest in project boats than ever. A real mess of a project boat - needs practically everything - even with a good hull of fiberglass and 40 to 50 feet long - might not sell at all -even for $10,000.

Overall, the prices of respected cruising boats from say the 70s are about 1/3 what they were ten years ago when I was last looking. But again, to figure out some particular boat which may have maintained more value - tough one - seems like teak decks, which some people did not like ten years back, are REALLY unpopular now .

Anyway, how do you know for sure? My strategy is just to lowball the heck out of everybody - if someone is on the low end of the market but also on the low end of upgrades -maximum of 1/2 the asking price.

No one has punched me yet, some maybe wanted to. But I am still looking.
yeah i agree it can be tough to put a fair value on a sailboat. in my case i was lucky that i had the chance to put an offer on another boat made near the same time that was almost a carbon copy of the one i'm trying to buy now. i was outbid on it and had the good fortune to meet the buyer one day in the marina. i asked him what he paid for the other boat and he told me. this gave me a great reference for value for the boat i'm trying to buy now.
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Old 05-01-2016, 20:21   #83
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Interesting comment. How will you feel come the day you want/need to sell your boat and some hard ass cheapskate offers half or less than your asking price? ... that's providing you did not jack the asking price far higher than it was really worth.
Every sailor on this forum knows (or ought to know) the value of his/her boat and the condition of said vessel too. I believe they have a right to realise fair value of their property by fair negotiation. People like you are the reason for depressed market prices.
If you were dealing with me I would tell you that you simply are not in the right income bracket to become a sailor of anything larger than an Optimist dinghy ... and end our dealings right there.
although i liked boatbrains post i had to lol at this one....
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Old 05-01-2016, 20:34   #84
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

I sat down with my surveyor and reviewed the pricing info on Soldboats with her. Since I didn't know the surveyor and had no idea if she had a good handle on pricing (she had a great reputation for integrity), actually watching her gather the info increased my confidence in her conclusion.

If I had just read her conclusion in terms of just a number in her report, I wouldn't have known what had actually gone into her valuation.

Why not politely ask your surveyor to review the pricing info with you, give you an initial estimate and then you share your price with him.

I wouldn't think of accommodating the Broker unless he explains his motivation for the request.
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Old 05-01-2016, 20:39   #85
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599 View Post
Interesting comment. How will you feel come the day you want/need to sell your boat and some hard ass cheapskate offers half or less than your asking price? ... that's providing you did not jack the asking price far higher than it was really worth.
Every sailor on this forum knows (or ought to know) the value of his/her boat and the condition of said vessel too. I believe they have a right to realise fair value of their property by fair negotiation. People like you are the reason for depressed market prices.
To be fair, lowballers don't really depress market prices unless someone is willing to sell to them.

Probably the best thing to do is reject their offer and not give them a lot of thought.

There is always someone out there willing to take advantage of someone else's misfortune.
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Old 05-01-2016, 21:42   #86
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Begin with the end in mind.

Why do you even care what the valuation is? The offer has already been made so it won't change the initial offer and if no issues come up, you are stuck with the offer regardless of the valuation.
- If you need financing, the bank will want a value...but this doesn't apply as the OP said he was paying cash. If he was financing, a low valuation could wreck the deal.
- If you want a specific insurance replacement value...Probably good to let the surveyor know so if he can reasonably meet that, he can.
- If you want to use the survey to negotiate down...Probably good to let the surveyor know so if he can reasonably meet that, he can.
- You are paying several hundred dollars purely out of curiosity...Best not to let the surveyor know.

So as I see it, unless it's pure curiosity, you are best to let the surveyor know the offer price and what your goals with the survey are. Surveys are very subjective and there is easily room to shift the value by 10-20% in most cases.
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Old 06-01-2016, 06:25   #87
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Am I the only one who is DYING TO KNOW what boat we're talking about here???

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Old 06-01-2016, 09:37   #88
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Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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Am I the only one who is DYING TO KNOW what boat we're talking about here???




Nope me too

Hope to see update after the survey. Would suck if there was an issue.


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Old 06-01-2016, 10:00   #89
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

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In other words, I think a broker (who does NOT work for the buyer, as he is paid by the seller) will want the selling price to be as high as possible. He loses some commission amount (and reputation in the community) if the final sale price is lowered after negotiation due to a surveyor's estimated value and found problems. So, I think the logical thing a broker will do in HIS self interest is see that the valuation of the boat is as high as possible.
I haven't read thru the entire thread yet, but this point struck me as possibly not quite right. My wife is a Realtor, so the situation is 'somewhat' the same. The commission difference is very small, so brokers typically don't care if the price moves up or down a bit. What they want is a CLOSING. They don't get paid until the deal is complete. Now, that doesn't mean that some brokers will ignore the best interest of all parties in order to get a deal closed, I've seen it in real estate. But getting to the CLOSING TABLE is more important than final price.

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Old 06-01-2016, 10:19   #90
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Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Before this thread dissolves into a food fight and a mud wrestling contest allow me the courtesy of a few observations.

First, what I took away from BoatBrain's post is that like many he is struggling with coming up with a realistic, effective pricing model. I share his struggle as I imagine many others do also so find no fault. We all are seeking solutions on this forum.

Second, totally agree with both er9 and Good Walkabout comments.

Third, my market place boat buying experiences differ in many ways from WillyCs comments, although I appreciate his input and perspective.

Forth, OutofControl - fyi I've booked a Motel 6 as that is all I can now afford after being screwed over by a buyer's broker (only kidding here)
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