Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-01-2016, 20:25   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 278
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
my surveyor asked me what I paid for the boat ,but only after he delivered the completed survey,and the broker said nothing either way about talking to him. this might be a mountain/molehill senario

Sure, but your broker didn't go out of his way to ask you not to report the sales price to the surveyor. That doesn't seem odd to you?
__________________

__________________
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 20:28   #17
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,477
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faa50 View Post
In response to the post regarding brokers reporting falsified sold prices to Soldboat (which is owned by Yachtworld and thus creates a conflict of interest).

Less than a year ago, I was shopping to purchase an Island Packet 485. At the time I was shopping, prices on these boats were dropping significantly and new low sold prices were being established.

I was speaking to several large brokerage firms on the East coast and were being offered these boats by brokers for sometimes more than 10% off listing price. A large brokerage had offered me a particular IP 485 at an unadvertised price, never before sold price, however when I learned who the listing broker was I decided to pass on the offer.

A couple months later I was speaking with another broker at this same firm and he shared how the boat in question had actually sold for a lower price than shown in Soldboat because the owner's of the brokerage wanted to keep Island Packet boat prices up.

I notified Yachtworld of the fraud but never heard back. I've been told when Yachtworld finds a broker falsifying sold prices, they do not allow them to advertise on Yachtworld. Really? Seems a huge conflict of interest to me expecting them to "police" themselves.

I shared this information with another prominent Island Packet dealer hoping he would do the right thing and report the brokerage. Unfortunately, the Island Packet dealer did not report the false price.

As consumers in an unregulated industry it is increasing difficult knowing who to trust and what data is accurate.
What you have stated is an indictment of the boating industry. It gives evidence to what I thought was going on. Perhaps we should be calling on State Attorneys Generals in the United States to start to investigate these players. Just saying.
__________________

__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 20:48   #18
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun and Moon View Post
If you tell the surveyor the price you are paying, that will likely be the value he suggests for the boat. If you don't tell him, he will go on Yachtworld and find out what the asking price for the boat was, and that will likely be the value he suggests. Then when you complain that X,Y and Z need to be fixed or the boat discounted, the seller will say "your surveyor said the boat is worth way more that you are paying, so we're not fixing anything". So it's to the broker's advantage to keep the surveyor in the dark, and it's to your advantage to tell the surveyor everything you know, assuming you trust your surveyor.
I have read all of the comments posted so far.

I see how some of each of them may apply to this scenario and in general.

But, I think most likely is a "short term" versus a "long term" reasoning behind a broker NOT wanting the surveyor to know of a lower offered price.

I think most people do business with "short term" personal goals in mind (What's in it for me and how will this affect ME on THIS sale?) rather than "long term" goals (Is this good for long term pricing of this brand?).

So, when I read SUN AND MOON's comment above, it resonated with me or "sounds true."

In other words, I think a broker (who does NOT work for the buyer, as he is paid by the seller) will want the selling price to be as high as possible. He loses some commission amount (and reputation in the community) if the final sale price is lowered after negotiation due to a surveyor's estimated value and found problems. So, I think the logical thing a broker will do in HIS self interest is see that the valuation of the boat is as high as possible.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 20:58   #19
Registered User
 
admiralslater's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Toronto summer rest somewhere else
Boat: Outremer 45/pdq36
Posts: 670
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces View Post
Sure, but your broker didn't go out of his way to ask you not to report the sales price to the surveyor. That doesn't seem odd to you?
As someone else said perhaps he doesn't like the guy. At the level of boats most people are in there is some money in it but not tons. The Op should do what he wants
__________________
admiralslater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 21:11   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 278
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
As someone else said perhaps he doesn't like the guy. At the level of boats most people are in there is some money in it but not tons. The Op should do what he wants

I agree that the OP should do what he wants, but it's a little irregular for the broker to indicate to the buyer what he should or shouldn't tell the surveyor. The surveyor works for the buyer. The broker works for the seller.
__________________
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 22:44   #21
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,477
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
What you have stated is an indictment of the boating industry. It gives evidence to what I thought was going on. Perhaps we should be calling on State Attorneys Generals in the United States to start to investigate these players. Just saying.
Wow. Did I say that. I have an excuse. Im still on pain meds from my ruptured left shoulder tendons. I wouldn't wish this pain on my worst enemy. Anyway. I want to take back what I said somewhat. Everyone is trying to make a living and they are doing it the best way they can. Even the boat manufacturers down to the boat brokers and all ways in between. While I do get upset with what Milton Friedman would call the inefficiencies of controlled markets I do understand that people are not really trying to be bad people. They are trying to make it work. It is worth considering though what the boat market place would be like with true transparency. Sorry if I have caused any boat brokers any undue consternation.
__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 22:44   #22
er9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Boat: 1980 Mariner36
Posts: 195
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
It may be some sort of personality issue between the broker and the surveyer. Just out of crankiness I might not tell the broker what the surveyer says it is worth.
lol...nice...
__________________
er9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 22:55   #23
er9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Boat: 1980 Mariner36
Posts: 195
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces View Post
I agree that the OP should do what he wants, but it's a little irregular for the broker to indicate to the buyer what he should or shouldn't tell the surveyor. The surveyor works for the buyer. The broker works for the seller.
and this surveyor apparently has gotten under the skin of more than one broker due to his surveys. my broker did tell me he knew him well but i found no indication if that was amicably or not.

i have to admit it did put me off a bit by asking me that and i told him (my broker) i would consider it but if its in my best interest to tel him (surveyor) i would. his response was professional but the fact that he asked me kind of bothers me.

it makes me wonder if he's trying to hide something.
__________________
er9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 23:18   #24
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,657
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

You know what, the broker can pretty easily find out how much the surveyor charges for a survey. If your broker liked your surveyor, he would have smiled and said, "Wow, that's great!" or something similar in feeling tone. He thinks your guy is trouble for him, one way or another. Well, phooey on 'em. You pay the surveyor; he does the best job he can for you. He can really help you if the boat has a major flaw. Lead you to a low ball offer the broker will not want to offer to the seller.

At this point, er9, I think you know enough to make up your mind how you want to choose to handle the situation.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 23:22   #25
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St Petersburg
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,878
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

ER9

Think about it for a second.

What does the broker gain by withholding the price? Maybe misrepresenting the price in Sold Boats? Don't think that old stop him.

What do you gain? I am assuming you did a market study of what the boat is worth and are comfortable that you are at least "in th ballbark". If the surveyor has to develop his own price, it will either validate that the sale price is at or below market value of THAT boat, or it will tell you that you overpaid. If by some chance you did over pay, then you can use the survey and sea trial to get out of the deal.

All that said, there's nothing to stop the salesman from desctretely telling the surveyor the price, and then the surveyor putting a market price above the sales price.....

IMHO---You have more to gain than to lose by withholding the price.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ishmael
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 00:28   #26
er9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Boat: 1980 Mariner36
Posts: 195
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
ER9

Think about it for a second.

What does the broker gain by withholding the price? Maybe misrepresenting the price in Sold Boats? Don't think that old stop him.

What do you gain? I am assuming you did a market study of what the boat is worth and are comfortable that you are at least "in th ballbark". If the surveyor has to develop his own price, it will either validate that the sale price is at or below market value of THAT boat, or it will tell you that you overpaid. If by some chance you did over pay, then you can use the survey and sea trial to get out of the deal.

All that said, there's nothing to stop the salesman from desctretely telling the surveyor the price, and then the surveyor putting a market price above the sales price.....

IMHO---You have more to gain than to lose by withholding the price.
well i offered a little more than half the price they were asking. considering the boats pedigree i think its a fair value considering the upgrades it needs, unless there is something major. if the broker is worried the surveyor will consider it worth even less than i'm offering then i'm worried not so much that i'm getting a raw deal but that there is a major flaw not being disclosed by broker and maybe he is hoping the survey will miss it. don't know i tend to be overly cautious and maybe he just hates the surveyor? dunno....i'm trying not to worry too much and go with what i know and the professionalism of the surveyor. i guess you can never be 100% sure of anything but it would be very painfull to buy a bad boat so i'm being overly cautious.
__________________
er9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 00:43   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cebu
Boat: Cranchi Atlantique 48
Posts: 250
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svGenesis View Post
I think it makes the surveyor use his best unbiased judgement which is exactly what you want. If you were getting a loan you want him to establish a higher value or at least the purchase value so there would be more loan value.
Unless of course, you care about your own financial health ... in which case you would just want the best unbiased judgement regardless.
I guess the only thing worse than overpaying would be ... overpaying with borrowed money ...!

Sent from my SM-T805 using Tapatalk
__________________
Zven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 02:56   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 242
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun and Moon View Post
If you tell the surveyor the price you are paying, that will likely be the value he suggests for the boat. If you don't tell him, he will go on Yachtworld and find out what the asking price for the boat was, and that will likely be the value he suggests. Then when you complain that X,Y and Z need to be fixed or the boat discounted, the seller will say "your surveyor said the boat is worth way more that you are paying, so we're not fixing anything". So it's to the broker's advantage to keep the surveyor in the dark, and it's to your advantage to tell the surveyor everything you know, assuming you trust your surveyor.

This is kinda backwards ... there is no reason the vendor or their broker should ever have access to the valuation made by the surveyor the purchaser employs ... and you can specifically ask that it is on a separate page (annex) of the survey so it can be removed before the survey is discussed with the vendor and their broker!
__________________
jannw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 04:23   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,865
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun and Moon View Post
If you tell the surveyor the price you are paying, that will likely be the value he suggests for the boat. If you don't tell him, he will go on Yachtworld and find out what the asking price for the boat was, and that will likely be the value he suggests. Then when you complain that X,Y and Z need to be fixed or the boat discounted, the seller will say "your surveyor said the boat is worth way more that you are paying, so we're not fixing anything". So it's to the broker's advantage to keep the surveyor in the dark, and it's to your advantage to tell the surveyor everything you know, assuming you trust your surveyor.
This is my bet.

Surveys are often used after the offer to negotiate a lower price (rightly or wrongly depending on the situaiton). If you have an offer of say $100k and the surveyor knows it, he may come back with a value of $80k, which gives you a negotating point to push the price down based on anything wrong that he finds. This makes brokers nervous as it can eat up 10-20% of thier commission or worst case cause the deal to fall thru.

I almost would prefer to tell the surveyor just because the broker annoyed me by trying to tell me what to do when he has no buisness getting involved. Since you don't have financing to worry about, not much harm in letting him know.
__________________
valhalla360 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 05:46   #30
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St Petersburg
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,878
Re: Why would broker ask me not to disclose price paid to surveyor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by er9 View Post
i'm trying not to .... and the professionalism of the surveyor. i guess you can never be 100% sure of anything but it would be very painfull to buy a bad boat so i'm being overly cautious.

Don't put blind faith in the surveyor. But you seem to already be aware of that.

I read up on how to survey a boat yourself. This will gave a better understanding of what the surveyor was doing and allowed me to ask about items it appeared he was not checking. Also read up on the model of boat you are getting. For example old Tartans tend to have deck issues where the chain plates come through the deck, so I was sure to get an immediate report about the deck in that area.

Finally, be sure to get the oil and transmission fluids tested. Most high quality machine shops can perform that service if you provide samples. Surveyors often provide the service as an extra. FWIW, pay the surveyor. He should have the pump and clean tubes to draw samples that are not contaminated from a used tube. Samples should be taken after the sea trial.

Don't stress too much, hope it all comes together nicely.


Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
__________________

__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ishmael
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
price, survey, surveyor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What You Paid vs the Advertised Price kiwa Dollars & Cents 51 11-01-2016 10:04
To broker, or not to broker, that is the question... letsgetsailing3 Dollars & Cents 40 29-01-2014 10:21
Should a Broker Disclose A Hurricane Damaged Boat? zeta Monohull Sailboats 45 15-05-2012 10:38
If it's Better to Buy Through a Broker-to-Broker Arrangement, I Need a Broker YesIsail Multihull Sailboats 4 14-11-2011 10:00
VAT Tax Paid / Not Paid harmonytek Dollars & Cents 2 13-07-2009 16:31



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:20.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.