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Old 15-08-2010, 12:39   #31
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A very fast cruising forum
from 5 mph to 5,1!
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Old 15-08-2010, 12:51   #32
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To see what a fin keel can do for you in a cruising boat take a look at Bill Lapworth designs. He pretty much wrote the original book on em. Put the sailing community on its ear in his time.

And his boats are still out there sailing and racing and cruising ; -)

Everything is a trade off and every tool has different strengths, true for boats too, but I think saying all good cruising boast should be full keeled is like saying all good boats should be wood. One isn't better than the other, its just a matter of using different materials to their best advantage.
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Old 15-08-2010, 13:02   #33
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the difference is also a personal preference in handling, as they each handle differently. is up to you and what are your wishes in the handling capabilities of your boat.

i like the fact i can spin my ericson in its own length--is a handy tool to have. formosa needs a lot of space to turn same -- will NOT spin on its keel--dang..LOL...
ericson can sail 8 kts in a 15 kt breeze under jib alone. formosa can take a 15 kt breeze to leave the ball and sail......ericson can sail circles around my formosa--is alll good---formosa has less weather helm and is heavier in build....ericson has a realllly coool modified fin keel--helps the tracking abilities some...formosa tracks for long minuets before deciding to self modify direction....

yes--lapworth and wenk and jensen, the cal guys--were awesome--their boats are sailing world wide. lapworth has some of his own out there too , as does jensen..sturdy and capable boats with sweet lines. true performance cruisers.
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Old 15-08-2010, 13:36   #34
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Originally Posted by DaveOnCudjoe View Post
It would seem to me that this discussion should be more about internal vs external ballast. one can have a fin keel with internal ballast that won't come off. Full keel is for tracking, fin keel is for lift , manuverability and reduced wetted surface. Dave
Exactly. I'm currently having a heany displacement cruiser built with an internally ballasted (no keel bolts) fin keel and a full skeg hung rudder. Best of both worlds? No, it's still a compromise.

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Old 15-08-2010, 15:01   #35
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There are fin keels and then again, there are fin keels.. ours is about the size of a small car and weighs about the same..
We had the oppertunity to chose between a Hans Christain (Full keel) and a First 42 (fin keel) and you can see what we chose..
Our main reason is we hate bad weather and with our knowledge of weather and how it builds, we wanted the performance issue to put ourselves in a less deteriorate condition of a storm front..
We've done this a number of times where storms would pack a front of 50 to 60 knots, we would head for the sweet spot and sail out 20 to 25 knots of speed..(wind speed, not boat speed)
As mentioned, its all a compromise and we chose not to compromise our safety by riding out a storm in a heav-to option..its worked for us.
dont confuse the sailing out of a storm meaning running before the storm and trying to outrun it.. its knowing the way a storm builds, the position, the speed of travel, and locating the sweet spot and sailing to it..
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Old 15-08-2010, 15:33   #36
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A friend lost the keel(wing) on his Oday 322 on Lake Ontario 3 yrs ago.When it went he pulled the floorboard up and he saw light through 3" dia. holes where the keel bolts had been.The boat fell on it's side and ended up with the mast pointing straight down.He grabbed his handheld VHF jumped off and was able to call a passing boat for rescue.
The only clue was slightly loose keel bolts every year.

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Old 15-08-2010, 17:33   #37
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zeehag - thanks for the comparison.

Philsboat - I wouldn't want to get in an oday even if it was in a bathtub
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Old 15-08-2010, 17:47   #38
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If you have a boat with fin keel, you should at least check the bolts and structure around the bolts to make sure everything is tight and no cracking around the bolts. Make sure the bolts are torqued. I would do this at least annually, if not more often. Just to be on the safe side.
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Old 15-08-2010, 17:52   #39
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Randy has strong points regarding speed and having a clear understanding of weather patterns and prediction. OK and I really like his boat too what can I say?

Something that came to me while reading is that a good size Bennie, such as Randy's, when compared to say a Westsail 32 or any heavy displacement of that size, can be just as comfortable if not more so in rough weather, can be handled with just as small a crew, is more maneuverable, and perhaps safer in other ways. It's also a lot more roomier, and has a more modern design interior (thank you a chart table), and can carry just as much tankage and supplies. I can't think of anything except perhaps sail size, and maybe that might end up being the same due to displacement needs in a traditional. So size of a boat can be an equalizer I think when comparing traditional vs racer/cruisers/

What is sort of frustrating is weeding out the odays from the gold. Whereas there is a lot written out there on traditional and performance cruisers, and we pretty much know which boats are suggested and which ones to avoid thanks to all the lists and old ratios, when it comes to racer/cruisers, there doesn't seem to be a common consensus. There are some really sweet Ericsons and C&Cs out there, and other brands. And the move in the future seems to be toward the racer/cruiser lifestyle of cruising. But when you ask around, all you get is general flippant answers from both camps:

"It ain't the boat, its the Skipper and crew"

or

"Dang fin keels are the devil. They'll drag on a reef or fall off, and wont keep ground! Bendie boats are just that!"

Instead of reasonably answering based on experience which brands and boats are actually suitable. Somewhere, a collective opinion must present itself based on real experience in owning, traveling and delivering these boats? They weren't all made just to be taken day sailing or offshore coastal. I just dont buy it.

When I go on a finner, I feel good. I think they are incredibly welcoming boats...then I look in the bilge and see the 4-6 keel boats, and I get nervous. I'm not sure how I can get over that propaganda and unlearn some of the things taught when young or in the books.
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Old 15-08-2010, 17:54   #40
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Today I vacillated back into the fin/spade boat porn - looking at Ericsons, Endeavours, and C&Cs. The price per foot and the interior designs, to me at least, just seem so compelling a draw. For the same amount I might spend on a Dana, a Shannon 28, or a Morris, I could buy a one or two Ericsons

The hardest thing is trying to get any information on the model lines. None of the usual cruising boat lists comment on these as options. I'm sure some would be really great racer/cruisers or performance/cruisers, and I know some would be totally undesirable. Trying to get some honest answers about cruising capability is difficult and I should start a thread to see if anyone really understands these lines at all e.g 32 is horrid, 35 - II is great etc...

I'm not totally ready to abandon my NE conservative viewpoint, but at the same time Blade/Fins really need some "due diligence" - at least on specific models. We know for example that Beneteau 35 and 38 from the 80's are options. What about others?
Don't forget the Pretorian Salty. They are very robust builds, just look at the skeg rudder here on ours:
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And from the PS review:

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The modified fin keel—6,000 lbs. of lead—is fitted to a keel stub, and bolted to the hull with 3/4" stainless bolts and two nuts on each. The rudder is attached to a skeg running aft from the keel, and mounted on a stainless steel bearing assembly. Because the rudder is well aft, and deep, it provides solid steering power in heavy seas and winds.
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Old 15-08-2010, 17:57   #41
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Doodles, your pretorian is a wonderfully sweet boat, and I think I've gotten over my aversion to sail drives. Great picture too. Love that Monitor! Made me nostalgic for mine which I had named "Horatio". You have taste!
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Old 15-08-2010, 18:07   #42
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When I go on a finner, I feel good. I think they are incredibly welcoming boats...then I look in the bilge and see the 4-6 keel boats,
On our Catalina 22, we had 6 keel bolts on the small keel.. On our 42, we have 16 of them.. all 16 are 3/4 inch and bolted throu an 8 inch floor in the boat.. Its not likely that it will fall off..
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Old 15-08-2010, 18:19   #43
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Doodles, your pretorian is a wonderfully sweet boat, and I think I've gotten over my aversion to sail drives. Great picture too. Love that Monitor! Made me nostalgic for mine which I had named "Horatio". You have taste!
No sail drive ... straight shaft. Most were sail drive, but not all.
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Old 15-08-2010, 18:31   #44
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Randy: I feel a lot less concern over 16 than I did seeing 4-6. 16 is almost welded on!

Doodles: no sail drive! thats a rare find!

Zee: This ones for you...
36 foot Steel Ketch Sailing Vessal 1988 Just drop 10K
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Old 15-08-2010, 18:42   #45
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Randy: I feel a lot less concern over 16 than I did seeing 4-6. 16 is almost welded on!

Doodles: no sail drive! thats a rare find!

Zee: This ones for you...
36 foot Steel Ketch Sailing Vessal 1988 Just drop 10K
Yes, but if you get back to this area there is one on the market in Deltaville ..1985 Wauquiez Pretorien Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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