Why I Don't Like Fin Keels

[SaltyMonkey]

witzgall - ummm not! Nothing to do with keel bolts; has to do with fin keels - thin, sleek, light, fin keels. Steel boats - questionable. Trust steel boats more, because of welds. But yes, they might be torn off as well if they were light weight.

Doodles - good research Doodles. Maybe they enabled it and that saved their trip back?

[SaltyMonkey]

RTB - wow; hard to believe a weld weakness! Good find on that keel picture!

Love his boat!

[RTB]

We will know soon enough. They are still heading to SF, about 450 miles to go. Hopefully, they don't get rolled first.

[SaltyMonkey]

Yeah, coming in the last few miles is most weatherly, but looks like wont get anything more until 15-20s on Mon-Tue.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Yes, good points.

But I'm left to ponder what is a prudent action of something like this occurred and you couldn't receive support (diesel etc) - radio out, or just off the grid - or too far away for engine etc?

Yes, the truth is someone could die out there and sadly, occasionally some do. Different senario but this couple did die. If that is an unacceptable risk, then you can't go sailing offshore.

Champagne couple were found dead on stolen yacht - Telegraph

As I said, back in the real world the keel isn't going to fall off your boat and you won't ever get hit by a hurricane at sea (because you won't be at sea when a hurricane hits).

These are the entries for the ARC in Nov, how many are fins (hint, most without even counting) and they are crossing an ocean

Now go buy a boat and stop worrying.

Pete

[svrodeorm]

Anyone ever heard of a full keeled boat losing it's keel?

Or it's keel-hung rudder for that matter?



added advantages... less tiring movement at sea, better load carrying capacities generally (not just because of the keel, but the hull shape too)
less likely to catch lines and fishing gear in the water etc. etc.

disadvantage? might point 5 degrees lower to the wind and move 0,2 knots slower- at least theoretically!

They are simply too expensive to build these days... plus the average boat buyer - much like the average car buyer - tend to swallow the marketing from todays 'boat manufacturers (as opposed to boat yards/-builders)
about 'performance cruisers' 'racer/cruiser' and such obvious BS.

Ever wanted to buy a car that's supposed to be both a LandRover and an Aston Martin.

Nothing wrong with an Aston Martin, I wouldn't want to drive it through Africa off-road though

[donradcliffe]

Every boat is a compromise. The fin keel boats not only sail faster, they also can back into marina slips.

The multi hull folks would say that fin keel boats are safer, because they float after the keels come off...

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Every boat is a compromise. The fin keel boats not only sail faster, they also can back into marina slips.

That's correct, but to me has nothing much to do with safe and comfortable cruising. For me it's about sailing, and lying at anchor.

Going from one marina to another is for the week-end warriors, or simply put: -another ball game altogether, hence my allegory 'Landrover vs. Aston Martin' or for that matter..... 'Willys Jeep vs. Chevy Corvette'

....and again, they don't sail that much faster either, just from keel shape itself. That kind of boats tend to light to medium displacement too, which is more important for boat speed, esp. in light air.

[SaltyMonkey]

Blade and skeg or partial skeg rudders have the advantage of maneuverability and ease of handling. Some people mistakenly think the opposite and suppose the full keel is better. Not so. Think power steering. The other fallacy is believing a blade or skeg hung rudder cannot be as strong. This is also a mistake as it can be as strong or stronger than a full keel hung rudder. Depends on the design and build.

There are compelling reasons to go with a Blade/Fin, and I'm not sure I'm ready to throw out that option, despite my "dramatic" title on this thread. Just difficult psychologically to let go of old preconceptions and desires.

Buy and go? Hell, there are so many good designs out there...it's getting much harder to choose just one, and I want that one to last a good while. Around and around we go...

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Blade and skeg or partial skeg rudders have the advantage of maneuverability and ease of handling. Some people mistakenly think the opposite and suppose the full keel is better. Not so. Think power steering. The other fallacy is believing a blade or skeg hung rudder cannot be as strong. This is also a mistake as it can be as strong or stronger than a full keel hung rudder. Depends on the design and build.

There are compelling reasons to go with a Blade/Fin, and I'm not sure I'm ready to throw out that option, despite my "dramatic" title on this thread. Just difficult psychologically to let go of old preconceptions and desires.

Buy and go? Hell, there are so many good designs out there...it's getting much harder to choose just one, and I want that one to last a good while. Around and around we go...

Fin and skeg can be almost as strong, given both are GRP boats, on a steel boat it can be at least as strong - as a full keel on a GRP boat i e.

Fin and skeg is a decent compromise IMHO, if it's a design you like for other reasons, and not available in long/full keel configuration. Not many (production) boats are built w full keels these days. as I said, too expensive.

fin and balanced rudder is fine for racing and daysaling, all depends on what you're gonna use the boat to.

This si a cruising forum, right?

[DaveOnCudjoe]

It would seem to me that this discussion should be more about internal vs external ballast. one can have a fin keel with internal ballast that won't come off. Full keel is for tracking, fin keel is for lift , manuverability and reduced wetted surface. Dave

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by svrodeorm

This si a cruising forum, right?

A very fast cruising forum

[zeehag]

being the owner of both heavy displacement cruiser and a fin/spade fast ericson 3mII--the fin/spade is good for fast sailing and spending a weekend in a different locale--but the combo is difficult in heavy weather---we had lots of that in gulf with a seidelmann 37--performance cruiser---i think i will love the feel of my formosa when i get there--is a more comfortable ride -- over a long distance, that makes a big difference --getting there tired and worn out vs arriving in more rested and not-exhausted condition. we had to really work hard to control boat in heavy weather with fin/spade combo.
i will be realllly happy to feel the slower more stable feel and tracking capability of my full keel ketch. and not having to hold on for dear life in a t-storm....

[SaltyMonkey]

Today I vacillated back into the fin/spade boat porn - looking at Ericsons, Endeavours, and C&Cs. The price per foot and the interior designs, to me at least, just seem so compelling a draw. For the same amount I might spend on a Dana, a Shannon 28, or a Morris, I could buy a one or two Ericsons

The hardest thing is trying to get any information on the model lines. None of the usual cruising boat lists comment on these as options. I'm sure some would be really great racer/cruisers or performance/cruisers, and I know some would be totally undesirable. Trying to get some honest answers about cruising capability is difficult and I should start a thread to see if anyone really understands these lines at all e.g 32 is horrid, 35 - II is great etc...

I'm not totally ready to abandon my NE conservative viewpoint, but at the same time Blade/Fins really need some "due diligence" - at least on specific models. We know for example that Beneteau 35 and 38 from the 80's are options. What about others?

[zeehag]

if you need info on ericson 35mII, i have said info--is inside my boat...is a good boaat to mod as
a long range cruiser--some folks have made recommendations on how to reduce weather helm in them for longer passages....and the problems specific to them and how much it costs realistically to repair those...like weather helm in heavy weather--i was advised to enlarge the rudder some..fore and aft parts , by a certain percent. the folks told me that had cruised one extensively before buying..a formosa 41..LOL..they were neighbors before this boat i bought arrived.

i had planned to cruise mine until i found this....

yes i will share if asked...

btw--the fin keel of the ericson 35mII is encapsulated.