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Old 23-01-2013, 17:02   #46
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

I will second the notion that for some reason a lot of brokers will not reply to emails--call them and you'll get a response.
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Old 23-01-2013, 17:02   #47
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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Bash,
The boats I'm looking at are not low end. They cost more than my first house!
My car costs more than my first house and it's just a Ford Taurus!!!
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Old 23-01-2013, 17:06   #48
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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I'm on my eighth cruising sized boat, so I have done a bit of buying and selling, and as everyone has pointed out it isn't an exact science. It is more of an art, for both the buyer and the seller, and let's face it most people are not artists. For example, there are brokers out there who are artists. They know their listings, they know boats in general, they have almost a sixth sense for what you are looking for, and they have a nose for hunting down just the right boat. They are few and far between and worth patronizing if you find one.

Most sellers are not really professionals, not even the brokers. It is a tough way to make a living, and I would guess that most brokers do something else as their real money maker. Individual sellers are mostly not professionals or artists either. They tend to look at selling their boat as a necessary evil they must get through, rather than a process they need to work hard at in order to do it right. Once the decision has been made to sell they have already divorced themselves emotionally from the boat, so ordinary chores like cleaning the cockpit or the head are now burdensome--they just want to get it over with and get the money in the bank.

By the way, I look for the dirty boats with the lousy ads, because there are often gems in the rough there that can be bought at a discount. Buying takes a lot of time. Plan on looking at boats for months. Don't go in with any expectations based on the listing--they are usually dramatically incorrect. One unfinished boat I drove three hours each way to see was not actually the boat design as listed. When I brought this up with the owner he wouldn't back down--insisted it was a different boat than the one he was selling. That's how bad listings can be.
Well said, Kettlewell. I'm with you on this.

Funny thing--I'm cool with the whole broker thing, and do understand it's no easy way to make a living. So, WORK. I work my butt off, and from my view: I see lazy people who don't want to take a chance with a "buyer" before they even know anything. Before I left on my trip, I tried to line up as many boats to see in the area as I could, and while there did the same. It was like pulling teeth. And this is the dead of winter! I didn't see anyone else beating down their doors to check out boats...

I had emailed one guy, explaining my schedule for a few days, and asking when it would be convenient to get together. He wrote back, "Today is not good for me." That was it--nothing about, say, when WOULD be...DUH!
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Old 23-01-2013, 17:09   #49
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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My car costs more than my first house and it's just a Ford Taurus!!!
Really? That's hilarious!

Okay, maybe you think I'm super old now! Let me re-phrase: They cost more than the house I own right now.

-Scott
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Old 23-01-2013, 17:25   #50
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My boat is old and inexpensive and there were no brokers involved. When my dad bought his Vagabond, the broker he used worked with him for like 2 years traveling the western half of the U.S. looking at boats before they finally found Fidellis. Having spent a large part of my life in sales, if a broker IDT interested enough in earning his commission to do a decent job of helping find the right vessels, well to h*** with him! With the amount of money at stake there are brokers out there wanting a sale. The money goes where it's been earned. I assure you when we are ready to step up to our live aboard there is no way my money is going to some unprofessional schmuck who blows me off because I live in the desert.
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Old 23-01-2013, 17:28   #51
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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...Let me re-phrase: They cost more than the house I own right now.
The way the housing market has been the last 5 years you could easily be in a house that you paid $5K for.
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Old 23-01-2013, 23:24   #52
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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The way the housing market has been the last 5 years you could easily be in a house that you paid $5K for.
Michigan must be really messed up. I have doors on this house that cost that much.
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Old 24-01-2013, 04:17   #53
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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I've been looking at boats for sale for some time now, and I have to ask--while clicking through the various networks, it's apparent to me that boat owners and brokers must not get embarrassed too easily, and it must be ridiculously easy to sell boats despite uneasy economic times?
I have a question and a suggestion.

First, in this market with so many boats to choose from why are you still looking? For several years now we have had a great market for buyers. You say you have been looking for some time, mostly online I suspect, yet you haven't found anything? Are you really serious or do you just like to look and kick tires or maybe you're looking for the ultimate deal?

Second, get yourself a decent buyers broker and let them do the dirty work. They can do the leg work, make the calls, pre-inspections, setup the appointment, etc. It will save you a lot of time and energy, and get you on the water and off the computer.
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Old 24-01-2013, 05:42   #54
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

People who really want to sell their boats will, and people who really want to buy a boat will. There are lots of people out there on both sides of this so stop messing around with the ones that aren't.
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Old 24-01-2013, 09:16   #55
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

To find out whether the seller is serious you have to ask questions! When he cannot answer these questions you will know he is not serious or that the advert is a scam. Don't be afraid to be straight to the point. Here are a few examples:

1. Is the yacht registered in the National shipping register?
2. Is there a mortgage upon the vessel?
3. When not-registered; do you have a 'Closed transcript' or 'Declaration of non-registration' to proof this?
4. Can you proof you are the legal owner by showing me the last sales agreement or 'Bill of Sale'?
5. Is the state of maintenance in your advert realistic?
6. What are the damages that you know of?
7. What are the estimated yearly costs of this boat?


For sellers that don't want to deal with a lot of tire kickers the same applies: ask questions to find out who you are dealing with. Asking the right questions and speaking out your expectations is essential when finding the right buyer. Get to know your potential buyer and make sure you know exactly what he is looking for. Too much communication never hurts. Give a lot of information and be honest. It is much better that you present him a realistic picture of your boat, than investing time in a visit for nothing.

One of the most annoying things when you are selling your boat yourself are the "time wasters" or the "dreamers". People that act like potential buyers, but who don't have the money, know nothing about boats and have no intention of actually buying your boat.

With this in the back of your mind you can ask the potential buyers a few things before you actually plan in a visit. These questions will help you not to waste your time:

1. Ask what their budget is. It might not be the most polite question, so you might also ask them what their profession is and also ask for their age. In that way you get an idea of whether they can afford it. Questions whether they run their own company or whether they are house owners also give an indication.
2. When they require financing the boat, you can also ask whether that has already been taken care of.
3. Ask whether they included the costs of a survey and insurance into the total costs.
4. Does the potential buyer own a boat right now, or did they have one? If that is the case, ask what kind of boat.
5. What kind of experience as a yachtsman does he or she have? Motor or sailing boat and where do they normally sail? Are they a member of a yacht club (which one)?
6. Do they have the required licenses to operate a/your boat?
7. Ask how many boats they have looked at before they contacted you.
8. Where are they planning to bring the boat to? Have they contacted marina's, or do they already have a berth?
9. Have they contacted a surveyor that will perform the technical check? Every serious buyer has a boat surveyed before they actually buy.

By getting answers to the above questions you get a better image of the potential buyer and the buying intentions of that person. Based on these answers you can determine whether you want to continue planning in a visit or not. When in doubt you can of course always call. When you get strange answers you will notice straight away. Continue asking questions when you do not trust them.

With regard to boats for sale a lot of sellers do not put in enough time when they are making an ad. It is a missed opportunity because the boat will be much longer for sale or they don't find a buyer at all. Eventually they will conclude that it doesn't work to sell yourself. To make it work you have to put in some effort and serious buyers will know how to find you.

It is important to give a good and realistic view of your boat. Fill in all the specifications, be honest about the state of the boat and set a reasonable asking price, but above all put in good pictures and preferably a video. Not any picture will do and it is essential to prepare your boat before you start taking pictures. Clean everything and make sure you get personal items of the boat. You want to have people looking at 'their' boat instead of 'your' boat.

This video of Bouwe Bekking shows a view handy tips about taking the right pictures.
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Old 24-01-2013, 09:35   #56
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

The majority of the listings do have very silly photographs. I know what a microwave looks like. Brokers take all those "item" photos so they do not have to type in all the specifications. Gradually the pics are improving but the profiles taken in the slip with all the pilings and fenders are my favorites. I am super sensitve to this being a broker.
Consider that when a house comes on the market the listing agent gives the homeowner a list of recommendations so the house will show better. Owner jumps right on it. I give a boat owner a list and have a 1 in 5 shot of them working on it.
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Old 24-01-2013, 11:23   #57
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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Originally Posted by Jort View Post
you can ask the potential buyers a few things...

1. Ask what their budget is.
As a buyer, I would not answer that question. Nor would I answer questions about my age or profession. In fact, I would consider questions about my age or profession to be inappropriate and intrusive.

Quote:
7. Ask how many boats they have looked at before they contacted you.
I also would not answer this question. At least, not specifically. I might say something like "this isn't the first boat I've looked at" (regardless of whether it was or not).

Quote:
Every serious buyer has a boat surveyed before they actually buy.
True, but not every serious buyer makes arrangements with a surveyor before they have even made a first offer on a boat.

The fact of the matter is that the buyer has the upper hand, especially in today's market. He is thinking about spending a lot of money for a luxury item. It doesn't cost him any more to buy this month than it does to buy next month.

The seller, on the other hand, almost always has ongoing expenses--docking or mooring, insurance, taxes, routine maintenance. If he is spending $1,000 a month in expenses, it is pretty stupid to spend 8 months holding out so he can get an extra $6,000 on the sales price. I've seen boats on Yachtworld that have been listed for years. The owners have probably paid more than the boat is worth just in routine expenses since they first put it up for sale.

Bottom line, if you REALLY want to sell your boat, you are going to have to accept the fact that you will deal with some tire-kickers. That's just the way the world works. If, as the subject line of this thread suggests, you really DON'T want to sell your boat, then by all means be extraordinarily choosy in who you are willing to talk to.
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Old 24-01-2013, 11:39   #58
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pirate Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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Have they contacted a surveyor that will perform the technical check? Every serious buyer has a boat surveyed before they actually buy.
TOSH... Never had a survey on any of my boats... do it myself
As for anything else like where the boats going etc... owners don't usually care.. not that they believe anyone would sail beat up 21 & 22 ftr from the UK to Portugal...
Or an old Hunter across the Atlantic come to that...
All they're interested in is the CASH...
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Old 24-01-2013, 12:02   #59
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

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True, but not every serious buyer makes arrangements with a surveyor before they have even made a first offer on a boat.

The fact of the matter is that the buyer has the upper hand, especially in today's market. He is thinking about spending a lot of money for a luxury item. It doesn't cost him any more to buy this month than it does to buy next month.

The seller, on the other hand, almost always has ongoing expenses--docking or mooring, insurance, taxes, routine maintenance. If he is spending $1,000 a month in expenses, it is pretty stupid to spend 8 months holding out so he can get an extra $6,000 on the sales price. I've seen boats on Yachtworld that have been listed for years. The owners have probably paid more than the boat is worth just in routine expenses since they first put it up for sale.

Bottom line, if you REALLY want to sell your boat, you are going to have to accept the fact that you will deal with some tire-kickers. That's just the way the world works. If, as the subject line of this thread suggests, you really DON'T want to sell your boat, then by all means be extraordinarily choosy in who you are willing to talk to.
Agree to the above. Sellers that wait toolong for a buyer with a price that is too high are burning more money than what they would get extra when selling at their initial price.

With regard to not answering questions like that as a buyer I understand your reaction, but I will give you the background to this. Because demand and supply of boats mostly find each other online you have no idea who the other party is. It is not only about finding out how serious they are. It is also trying to verify whether you are not dealing with a scammer. We have had a fair amount of 'buyers' on our platform trying to scam sellers. Now we have al sorts of verification in place and even a fraude register. False enquiry scams are also known as buyer scams as they often involve fraudsters posing as buyers feigning interest in your boat.

"But they seem so genuine…"
Details vary from scam to scam, but typically fraudsters will pose as interstate or overseas buyers keen to buy your boat unseen. They are unlikely to negotiate on price and may even offer to pay more than the asking price.

Explanations for overpayment range from banking errors to cheques being from a previous sale that fell through. The buyer may even claim that the ‘extra’ money is for ‘shipping expenses’, ‘insurance’, ‘customs duty’ or ‘agent’s fees’.

The catch is the seller has to refund the excess amount to the buyer, usually through an online money transfer service such as Western Union. The seller will later find they were provided with a false receipt for funds that were never transferred or that the cheque they were provided with was false, but not before they parted with the ‘extra’ money and possibly the boat too.

Therefore it is important to ask questions like that as a seller. Again, I do understand you don't feel like answering questions like that, but you should always try to give the seller the reassurance you are legit and not a scammer.
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Old 24-01-2013, 12:32   #60
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Re: Why don't you want to sell your boat?

I just love these broker bashing threads. They used to make me mad, now they just make me laugh. If you think most brokers suck, and it's such a lucrative profession because you're selling high ticket items, raking in big commissions, then please, please go get a job as a yacht broker for a while.

The reality of being a broker is that everyone is eager to use your time, because no one is paying you for it. Sure, we make money on some boats when they sell, but we also put time into a lot of deals that never close and with a lot of customers that never buy. A good broker has to be selective with their time.

You don't like ads with too few pictures and you don't like ads with too many pictures? Well Goldilocks, I think I know why broker's are hesitant to work with you. With everyone, buyers and sellers, eager to use up our time because we aren't charging for it brokers have to be selective and prioritize. The expensive boats and customers spending serious money get first priority. People that show up on time and seem to value our time get top priority. Time wasters get taken care of when time is available.

Here are some tips for getting better service from brokers:
-Don't email long lists of stupid questions. Right off the bat you come across as a time waster. (see Jort's post above for a perfect example of a list of questions that will get your email moved to the trash bin)

-Call!!! Like someone posted earlier, serious customers call. You may get a voicemail, but you'll get called back because serious customers call. If you're going to email, then email your phone number. A broker can tell you a lot more about the boat in 2 minutes on the phone than they can spending 15 minutes typing you an email response.

-When you're searching on Yachtworld, don't click the "contact broker" tab. You will almost always see the listing broker's email address and phone number at the bottom of the listing, contact them directly. The "contact broker" or "email broker" tab usually sends the message to the managing broker of the firm, then they have to forward the lead to the listing broker. Because of that those messages sometimes never get received or they are delayed a day or two.

-You've got to come see the boat. Pictures lie. Pictures don't show soft decks, pictures don't show the caulk lifting up between the teak strips, or mildew, or gel coat crazing. A broker is not going to take pictures of the problem areas of the boat or the seller will get pissed. A broker is not going to talk you out of coming to look at the boat. If you live 1000 miles away I'm sorry, but you will end up missing out on a lot of nice boats and you will end up looking at a lot of crap ones if you try to do all your searching and selection from behind a computer. A buyer's broker can be a huge asset to you, but don't expect much if you're buying a boat under $100K. Remember, that buyer's broker is working for free, he's probably had customers that he spent 100 or 200 hours and hundreds of dollars in gas that then turned around and bought a boat from a private seller, so they may be a little jaded, and you may need to reassure them that "You're my broker, I'm sticking with you".

-If you are working with a Buyer's broker, don't start emailing and calling other brokers, wasting their time, then at the end tell them "oh, by the way, I'm already working with a broker, Joe Schmo". Let your broker make the inquiries.

-Treat all brokers time with at least a little respect. Show up on time for appointments, call if think you're going to be late. Don't talk their ear off, remember when you call they are probably in the middle of something else, so keep it brief and to the important stuff. If a broker thinks you respect their time and you aren't out to waste it, they'll bend over backwards for you.
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