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Old 07-04-2006, 18:55   #106
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Old 07-04-2006, 18:59   #107
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Interesting thought Elusive. Start at the right size. I have a good 10k ocean miles under the belt on sailboats (other peoples) but I don't know what the right size would be. The other thing is the price. I can pick up an adequate boat for costal cruising for $30k to $50k. If everyone in the family likes it then we can step up and buy a boat that we are all comfortable in. Will I lose money on the first boat. Yes! But what about buying a $200k Hallberg and finding out that Beth (my wife) doesn't like to cruise. She ends up with the house I get the boat and the divorce attorneys divy up everything else.

Starting small isn't a waste of time or money IMHO. You get to sail. You learn systems. and if you buy right the loss is a minimum. It takes awhile to learn what you need in a boat and I don't how else you can do it without trying a boat out for size.

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Old 08-04-2006, 02:15   #108
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“Dance Floors” have no place on a seagoing small craft. I don’t like the idea of spaces larger than an arm span. I want to be able to go from hand-hold to hand-hold.

Similarly, one of my pet peeves is stuff that looks like structure, but isn’t. I always keep in mind that, if it “looks” like a hand-hold, it “is” hand-hold. For instance, thin wall aluminum ‘Bimini’ or ‘Dodger’ frames are a no-no.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:47   #109
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Charlie - All good points. One other good point is that we all have different requirements and situations. I was only expressing MY point of view for my situation. In my case, yeah, jumping from very small boats with components to a large boat with systems was a big step.

On my web page I explain the process I went through to find the right boat for me (the first time) and some of my criteria. Simply put, it was a 5 plus year process; one I am happy I did and happy with the results.

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Old 08-04-2006, 08:57   #110
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Dance

" You only need standing headroom in a boat if you sleep standing up, or intend to dance " Nat Hereshoff.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:06   #111
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BC Mike C - Hereshoff was correct if you are a day sailor or racer. But, IMHO, if you live aboard, or cruise, you ARE going to be spending time down below - other than in a horizontal position. Also, if you are only 5'5" tall, then the point is probably moot. I'm 6' 6" tall and really do not like walking stooped, on my knees, or banging my head five or six times trying to get from the companion way to the head.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:31   #112
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Hi Elusive :

What a good site you have. It shows schedules are not something to keep. Lots of good info. The time frame of getting the boat ready sounded like a good schedule 3 years sounds reasonable. Its that work thing that gets in the way. I got through March of 2004 and now have to get going Kida B-Day party. I'll read through as time permits. In reading thru my post I apologize if it sounded a bit harsh. I didn't mean it that way. As you say different people have different ways that work for them. I know that I would buy a big boat and take off but I want the rest of the family to buy in to sailing.

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Old 08-04-2006, 09:36   #113
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Common Themes

This thread is interesting in many ways-- it's uneven, but there's many interesting points being touched on.

Gord, thanks for the "dance floor" image and example.

Wendy V, I agree strongly with the idea that couples should both feel comfortable with handling the boat alone. Being equal partners is also a way to ensure equal investment and reward as the bad times come and pass. My wife, for example, is really proud when we sail in bad weather, because she knows she's developing the same skills and confidence level I have. (On May 6-7, we'll both earn our ASA Bareboat Certification at the same time.)

I also agree with Charlie about the learning curve. As I work on our 27 footer, learning the systems in a smaller boat is as challenging as I need right now (while also doing systems in a 2500 foot house, raising two kids, working full time, being a half-way reliable spouse). Also, everytime I sail another boat, my ideas change of what I might want to own in the future. All of this is leading to better future choices.

As for Elusive's points, I read your web site this morning and found it really detailed and well-written-- a very good site about sailing and boat ownership. Your boat is really attractive, and it's clear how come you like it so much. At the same time, your progress and challenges seem to make me think that our more sequential approach still is perfect for us. Maybe I'm just radically self-centered, but your honest descriptions of the time involved to do boat projects, the greater achievements after you stopped work, the costs involved, and the need for a real partner all made me think that I wasn't doing a terrible job starting small and working up.

I keep going back to things that Don Casey and even Bob Bitchin have written: cruising can be a fantastic part of your life, but it doesn't have to replace your life. The dream is to let everything go and just cruise (and in the future we might do that, on an appropriately sized boat), but the reality is that most of us need to work up to that level, and the process of getting there can exceedingly fun and rewarding. In fact, I'm wondering now if a "hybrid" approach (cruising for 1-3 months a year for many years while still working), may not be a great 10 year plan (for those of us with 10-15 years before even early retirement).

Thanks to everyone!

Jim H
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Old 08-04-2006, 10:09   #114
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Price to Fun Ratio

Jim H:

I think it is similar to getting in to cold water. When I was younger I liked to run through the waves and dive in. None of that getting in slowly. Get it done. Get it out of the way. Now I tend to do things slower. I walk in as far as the knees and maybe splash a little water on my body. When I get to that point where my legs start I prefer to dive in . The thing is that if you want to get in the water eventually you have to dive in.

Everybody has different styles and people need to figure out what works for them. Maybe somebody "needs" to buy a Hunter 42 starter boat b/c that is the smallest boat his wife will accept. If there weren't people buying those boats Marine supplies would be alot more expensive b/c there wouldn't be an economy of scales.

I would love to buy a 39' to 44' and just take off. But "Commuter Cruising"
1-6 month voyages is more in line for the next couple of years. Then if the family agrees we'll set sail for longer periods.

I'll probably use an Islander 36 as a tester boat and follow s/v Elusive's trail down the CA Coast and then do the Baja HA HA and keep the boat in San Carlos for awhile. I hope to buy something bigger but I need to "market" my dream to the family and make sure they bite. If not well I need to adjust the plan. I damn sure won't buya Hunter 42 though. A Hallberg RAssy or Hylas 42 well thats a different story. We can have a great time on a $35k I36 will we have 100 times more fun on a $350k boat. If not the Price to Fun Ratio is way off,

Charlie
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:56   #115
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Charlie - I did not feel that your posts were any problem what-so-ever. I took it as an expression of your views - as mine were. Thank god we aren't all the same.

Jim H - For me, the best way to learn was to "jump in with both feet" and to do all this on the boat I was going cruising with. Believe me when I tell you that I KNOW this boat inside & out! To my mind, I felt that even if I worked my way up and learned a lot on other boats, each boat is different and there would be enough differences that not all lessons learned would translate well to the bigger boat. I wanted my lessons learned to be germane to the boat that I would be doing my cruising with. (What goes "CLUnKieKlunK" on one boat may be cause for alarm, but on another, just normal)

Both of you - Thanks for the complements on the web site. Just wish that I had enough interesting tales of cruising delight to fill in from when I stopped, to currently. ::sigh::
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Old 17-08-2006, 15:34   #116
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Cause the Jones might have a bigger one! Gotta keep up. 75% of the American economy is consumer spending so there is a huge corporate stake in making you NEED to have the biggest most expense whatever there is. And how do they do that? They simply lead you to believe that the Jones have one of these mega what evers and you get compelled to keep up.
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Old 17-08-2006, 17:10   #117
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Originally Posted by pwederell
I thoroughly support the concept of fat, bald, rich businessmen buying good quality, expensive sailboats and not using them. Ten years down the track they realise what a waste of time & money, berthage fees etc. and say Sell Sell. Some real sailor comes along and buys the thing cheap, paints the bottom, replaces the rigging and goes sailing. Yahoo
I don't support it at all. These inexperienced, phony sailors with big bankrolls and little sense are driving up the cost of marinas and service people. I would probably not be interested in the Hunters they are buying anyway. I'm not interested in a floating condo that is not going to be able to stand up to heavy weather.
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Old 17-08-2006, 18:31   #118
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This is a fascinating thread. We often remark on how the "Sunday boaters" around us have so much difficulty learning on their new 40-60ft boats - often their first. We cringe as we see them damage these incredibly expensive starter boats. But... I guess one man's fortune is another man's pocket change.

If they don't mind the expense in crunching up a large boat like that, and learning along the way, who am I to argue? (unless I'm being run down in my tender or something!)

Me? I'm already feeling the thirst for something larger. Not from an interior perspective, but from a seaworthiness perspective. I'd love to be able to stand up to some serious weather, even while anchored out. I'd also love to be anchored out anywhere I choose - rather than in an "anchorage." Only large, commercial vessels can do that. Anyone want to trade??
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Old 17-08-2006, 18:31   #119
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This is a fascinating thread. We often remark on how the "Sunday boaters" around us have so much difficulty learning on their new 40-60ft boats - often their first. We cringe as we see them damage these incredibly expensive starter boats. But... I guess one man's fortune is another man's pocket change.

If they don't mind the expense in crunching up a large boat like that, and learning along the way, who am I to argue? (unless I'm being run down in my tender or something!)

Me? I'm already feeling the thirst for something larger. Not from an interior perspective, but from a seaworthiness perspective. I'd love to be able to stand up to some serious weather, even while anchored out. I'd also love to be anchored out anywhere I choose - rather than in an "anchorage." Only large, commercial vessels can do that. Anyone want to trade??
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Old 18-08-2006, 02:45   #120
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I'm with pwederell, I reckon he hit the nail on the head. As to the big powerboats owned by the incompetent, that's all about the SP concept - 'Small Penis' - as in have plenty of money, aspire to flashy ditsy-blonde girlfriend, needs to impress, have small penis, compensates with big powerful fast boat. Hey, they're entertainment for us real sailors until we gotta rescue them
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