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Old 18-02-2015, 16:58   #31
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Wow. I'm the only one who admits to a rudder/keel failure. I'm honored and humbled to be a "rank amature" among so many who have never experienced a component failure. Could it possibly be because I leave the dock?

"Amature", indeed.

Dave
We have owned 10 boats from homebuilt 18 footers to 60 footers built from a hull popped from a mold spanning 60 years of blue water cruising. We have never had a keel, centerboard or rudder failure of any kind.
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:02   #32
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

if I remember right when I lived in the *UK, the French has a rating system for how far off shore a boat is capable of going. there is a good number of boats that are very well built for anything the oceans will dish out. I have owned my Corbin 39 for 21 years and I know it can take any condition out there. In other words that boat can take care me long after I have to pack it in and lay a- hull. and there are a good number of other boats that can do as well. one other thing, no one should ever think the rudder will last a lifetime. they never had nor ever will.
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:11   #33
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

With all the cars being recalled for issues you would think a few boats would be normal

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Old 18-02-2015, 17:20   #34
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

Problem is the boat manufacturers have identified their market. One salesman told me the average buyer of his yachts never venture more than 30 miles offshore. It appears the boats are designed for weekend sailing with twilight racing and that is what is built.

Two competing philosophies for a design of a cruising boat, ones adapted from the racing craft, the other is adaption from work sailing vessels. At least the motor cruising fraternity know what their boats are based on, clue: "trawler" in their name.. I know what I prefer.
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:20   #35
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
That's a strange comment. A more accurate comment would be, 'so I just take the risk'. Down our way if you go out of sheltered waters you are required to carry an epirb and for good reason.
We're mostly coastal. Texas to the Bahamas, and up the East Coast. I'm very careful with weather. I really don't feel like "so I just take the risk" applies. If I feel the boat isn't up to a passage, or if I'm not comfortable with my abilities, I wouldn't go. Period. We're pretty bare bones. No AP, windlass, radar, epirb, liferaft, radar, AIS, davits, etc.....

.....but we get around just fine so far.

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If I was crossing oceans, I'd have very different priorities (and a different boat). Never the less, even cruising like we do, the boat is everything. If I can't afford the boatbucks or time to care for the boat, I'll sell her and move back on land where it's safe. I would hate to burden the US taxpayers with my rescue. Not to mention, having the Coasties risk their lives because of my own stupidity.


My new rudder-
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Old 18-02-2015, 18:00   #36
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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We're mostly coastal. Texas to the Bahamas, and up the East Coast. I'm very careful with weather. I really don't feel like "so I just take the risk" applies. If I feel the boat isn't up to a passage, or if I'm not comfortable with my abilities, I wouldn't go. Period. We're pretty bare bones. No AP, windlass, radar, epirb, liferaft, radar, AIS, davits, etc.....

.....but we get around just fine so far.

Attachment 97402

If I was crossing oceans, I'd have very different priorities (and a different boat). Never the less, even cruising like we do, the boat is everything. If I can't afford the boatbucks or time to care for the boat, I'll sell her and move back on land where it's safe. I would hate to burden the US taxpayers with my rescue. Not to mention, having the Coasties risk their lives because of my own stupidity.


My new rudder-
well I for one will continue to argue for your right to choose. But looking at them yellow dots that's a fair bit of coastal cruising. I really hope we don't have a thread on here about your disaster one day. good luck, safe sailing.
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Old 18-02-2015, 18:27   #37
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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well I for one will continue to argue for your right to choose. But looking at them yellow dots that's a fair bit of coastal cruising. I really hope we don't have a thread on here about your disaster one day. good luck, safe sailing.
I sure hope you don't read about our disaster one day. My wife's gonna kick my ass if that ever happens....besides, having an EPIRB won't prevent a disaster anyway. The EPIRB comes AFTER the disaster.

For me, I approach sailing maybe a little different than some. I am a licensed pilot. Not current these days, and not a ton of hours. But I did learn a lot getting that license. I know and understand weather. I realize my life depends on the machine to perform like it is supposed to. Once I take off on a cross country flight, I'm on my own. No place to pull over and think things through (no EPIRB or mommy button). If a thunderstorm rips the wings off, I'm dead. If I run out of fuel (I got lost or planned poorly), I'm dead, or maybe best case injured in an emergency landing. There are many ways to die while flying a little C-150, if you are an idiot. Fortunately, much of what I learned flying applies to our cruising. Like I already said - The Boat Is Everything, but you have to do your part keeping it in condition, and not go sailing into storms like a few recent sailors have done.

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Old 18-02-2015, 19:53   #38
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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I sure hope you don't read about our disaster one day. My wife's gonna kick my ass if that ever happens....besides, having an EPIRB won't prevent a disaster anyway. The EPIRB comes AFTER the disaster.

For me, I approach sailing maybe a little different than some. I am a licensed pilot. Not current these days, and not a ton of hours. But I did learn a lot getting that license. I know and understand weather. I realize my life depends on the machine to perform like it is supposed to. Once I take off on a cross country flight, I'm on my own. No place to pull over and think things through (no EPIRB or mommy button). If a thunderstorm rips the wings off, I'm dead. If I run out of fuel (I got lost or planned poorly), I'm dead, or maybe best case injured in an emergency landing. There are many ways to die while flying a little C-150, if you are an idiot. Fortunately, much of what I learned flying applies to our cruising. Like I already said - The Boat Is Everything, but you have to do your part keeping it in condition, and not go sailing into storms like a few recent sailors have done.

Ralph
Ralph, the point of an Epirb IS to prevent a disaster!
I'm a pilot too, as a number of people on CF are, oddly enough, a lot of sailors are. I think we are people that like going really really fast and really really slow.

Anyway, your fatalistic approach to flying is not how I was trained. I want a better 'best case' than being injured in a crash landing. Statistically, the chances of surviving a light plane crash is high, hence when cross country flying, the importance of an epirb.
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:04   #39
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

I didn't see it mentioned but there is always that unpredictable factor of the human. I am rebuilding my rudders. Had water saturated balsa inside. Really. No, I'm not kidding. Someone thought it would be a great idea to put balsa inside an appendage that is prone to getting dinged and cracked and spends its whole life underwater, inevitably allowing water inside.
I faired the rudder, took a split mold off it and will be using a lot of epoxy and epoxy foam in rebuilding it. I even removed the loose rods that served as a, well, I suppose skeleton, and welded on flat bars as should be.
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:34   #40
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Ralph, the point of an Epirb IS to prevent a disaster!
I'm a pilot too, as a number of people on CF are, oddly enough, a lot of sailors are. I think we are people that like going really really fast and really really slow.

Anyway, your fatalistic approach to flying is not how I was trained. I want a better 'best case' than being injured in a crash landing. Statistically, the chances of surviving a light plane crash is high, hence when cross country flying, the importance of an epirb.
I think you misunderstand (or I didn't put it quite right) what I'm saying. I love flying and sailing. I don't see how an Epirb prevents a disaster? Unless you mean the loss of my life? An Epirb won't keep a keel or rudder from falling off. That's my point. Just as with an airplane, if I'm not confident in the equipment, I'm not heading for any destination. If the weather forecast isn't favorable, I'm staying on the ground, or at port. I guess, when comparing flying and cruising, the Epirb would be equivalent to a parachute in an airplane. Do you wear a parachute when flying? Not unless you are a fighter pilot, or flying an aerobatic plane in competition.

Anyway, Epirbs have become more affordable recently from what I am seeing. So, there might be one in the ditch bag in the near future. I hope it doesn't affect the way I approach going offshore.....just knowing *if* stuff happens, I can hit the panic button and get rescued even if I ignore the weather forecasts, and don't bother maintaining my boat properly.

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Old 18-02-2015, 21:16   #41
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

Your not going to find the answer you want. It's probably already here somewhere. Boats are built for a market. And that market has some say in the price. The designers and builders get together and put in features they think will help sell the boat and take out other features they don't consider cost effective.
Unless you want to pay 10x more than mass produced yachts, you make due. And if you're a careful mariner the boat has a long life. Eventually some bozo that read too many "man against the sea" books, buys the boat and gets caught in weather beyond the strength of some or all of the boat structure. And someone asks " Why did that break?"
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Old 18-02-2015, 22:41   #42
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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It was loose before you even got it. There was a thread on the Hunter Owners site where the guy posted about it. But I'm sure the original owner told you all about it before hand
Quit making stuff up... it gets old. The prior owners found out about it the same day as we did during survey. They were honest guys who took great care of the boat and who were a pleasure to work with.

I don't appreciate you slinging your sh&t at someone who's not on the forum to defend themselves... especially when you're dead wrong. I'd buy another boat from the previous owners anytime.
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Old 18-02-2015, 23:31   #43
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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I have been in the thread about blue water boats going extinct and to some degree I think that the production designs have veered away from what could potentially be a blue water cruising boat.

I read on this forum and others about newer designed boats where the spade rudder bend, fall out........ why does this happen? Design, material, corner cutting? I personally haven't been a victim of such am event so I thats why I am asking

Same with the keels,I see pictures of boats turtled because keel just fell off. Again I have not had this happen so I ask why? why are these things happening?

I know if I bought a $250K(or more) vehicle and it drove just fine around town but the first time I decided to cross the country has bit a bad patch of road the engine fell out or steering wheel came off in my hands Id wonder WTF? Not only that why do I see parking lots(marinas) full of vehicles just like mine. To top it off every dealer in town has vehicles that are designed just like the one that left me stranded.

I guess I am asking why or how are these builder still selling new boats with what seems to be dangerous design for rudder and keel?
I am not bashing simply asking what the main causes have been and how are the boat builders working to prevent these failures in the future?
Plenty of other threads have debunked your ideas of a bluewater vessel. There are plenty of modern design expedition passagemakers (a better term developed on another similar thread) being built that aren't built the same as your BWB.

You have no need to try an justify your own preferences. Its OK. We are all different. No doubt you would make an argument that my choice of a catamaran is crazy.

Seems there are plenty of builders still selling these dangerous designs so it a matter of buyer beware but in the end it comes back to personal preferences and everyone is different.

Seems also plenty of evidence that crews break before vessels. Preparation is the other factor.

cheers
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Old 18-02-2015, 23:36   #44
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

Two factors nobody mentions which I thing are significant. The cyclic stresses that occur in long distance passages in bigger waves are much higher and for longer times than those experienced in coastal waters. One rough crossing could be the equivalent of 10 years coastal sailing. Stainless steel has poor cyclic loading performance, it goes brittle an fractures at around 10% of break load. that's why you need to upgrade rigging or replace it very frequently. However strong you make a spade rudder at the junction with the hull it is subject to very high fatigue loads. The same applies to fixing a short fin keel on a canoe hull. The answer is not to up the spec but to chnge it to a design that avoids the problem, e.g. longer keel and skeg or keel hung rudder. (plus a stiffer hull, uprated deck gear, standing and running rigging, sails, etc)
But as has been said offshore sailing is such a small market that no mass production yard is interested. The choice is buy old, custom or self build. The analogy to taking a road car on a long off-road trip is about right to me, for ocean sailing I want a solid 4x4 pickup truck not a road car even if it has all wheel drive and high clearance.

The other thing that breaks keels and rudders is hitting floating debris or grounding. no data but I suspect this is more common than realised. Again beefing up the design wont help, if yous mack a log or container at 8kn any rudder shaft will bend and keel front will take some damage. Traditional shapes with a strongly angled keel front will ride up and push aside most stuff with no more than cosmetic damage. They will also take a pretty hard grounding.
"you pays your money and takes your choice" Only thing that sometime worries me is that some people seam never to have considered it so did not 'make a choice' they just assumed it would be OK because the builder said it was. Why should we trust brokers any more than second hand car dealers?
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Old 19-02-2015, 10:05   #45
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Re: Why do Keels fall off and rudders fail?

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We have owned 10 boats from homebuilt 18 footers to 60 footers built from a hull popped from a mold spanning 60 years of blue water cruising. We have never had a keel, centerboard or rudder failure of any kind.
You are not lucky just smart in the selection of your boats. I never knew boats fell apart.
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