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Old 26-06-2014, 05:47   #16
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
Maytrix the lines are kept on the dock attached to pilings under the dock and on pilings that separate the slips. Most people do not use them for dock lines because they are large and not easily handled. These were not attached to the boat.


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Can you hum a few more bars about how hurricane lines work there? Fixed docks, or floating? How rigged (if not attached to the boat)? Sizes? Purpose? And so forth?

-Chris
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Old 26-06-2014, 05:57   #17
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Re: Whose lines are those?

I will sing the whole song. The docks are not of the floating variety. Lines vary in size but this vessel's were larger than 1".

We require that you furnish the dock lines and anchor lines necessary to secure your vessel in the following manner:
The following instructions presume you are docked stern to, if not, simply substitute the word bow for stern in the following. Each vessel must have an additional six (6) dock lines as large as your cleats can accommodate. More is better.
a) For your stern, use two loops of chain around appropriate pilings under the dock. Each line will have a thimble through which 5-6ft of 3/8 chain will pass. Be sure and measure the chain to fit your piles, as they may differ in size. The chain then will be shackled to itself into a loop to be placed around the piling. The chain loops will be supported above the water by using a small diameter line attached to a cleat or other support point. You should criss cross your stern lines.
b) For your spring lines , you will need a minimum of two (2) lines on the dock piling closest to your bow. . Allow sufficient length plus some on these lines. Once again, these lines will be led from chain loops
on pilings near the bow. The chain loops will be supported above the water on light lines.

c) Long lines across: For vessels with no dock opposite them, disregard this section and set anchor lines. For all others, you must have 2 long lines that will be attached to chain loops around pelican poles roughly opposite your slip on the dock across from you. These lines must be long enough to reach your vessels bow before it is sprung off the dock.

Allow enough line to accommodate a storm surge (2 feet of slack added to 12 feet of horizontal line will allow a rise of 8 feet). This arrangement of dock lines will allow you to pull your vessel away from the dock and avoid being forced into the dock, protecting your vessel from dock damage. Please make arrangements with the marina manager/dock master to go over the placement of your lines, chains, chaff gear before season starts.


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Old 26-06-2014, 06:07   #18
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Re: Whose lines are those?

A64, it is somewhat confusing but most boats have two full sets of lines. Two for the bow, spring and stern. Docklines are usually in the 1/2" range depending on the vessel size. Most boats have hurricane lines double that size. No, the owner didn't have every possible line attached. Without an impending major storm, that wouldn't be SOP. He also thought he would be gone a week, not six months.


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Old 26-06-2014, 06:20   #19
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Re: Whose lines are those?

I like the idea of these hurricane lines.
Currently my Marina requires two lines each of a min of 5/8 line for each bow and stern line, and that takes up all the available cleat.
Do you add additional cleats for hurricane lines, or how do you attach them?
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Old 26-06-2014, 07:01   #20
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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The lines weren't on the boat. Even if those clauses had been present, they wouldn't have mattered.The lines weren't attached to the boat, they weren't on the boat. So if they weren't on the inventory, it's a slam dunk.
I'll give the point they aren't on the boat but I won't continue on about how the contract can be improved - zero sum game. No matter what a contract says what matters is what a court thinks and courts are crazy.

Your point is interesting now. If the lines weren't on the boat then they were part of the slip?

Did the new owner move the boat to a new slip? If so did he take the lines and move them? If so was that theft? If so why didn't PO complain?

Did the new owner inherit the slip. If so what were the arrangements of the slip transfer? Use the dockbox as an example - If I took your slip/dockbox and you didn't take your stuff out - I could assume you don't want it.

IF none of that applies were the docklines abandoned and could anyone have picked them up?

No need to answer - this is a few hundred bucks. A couple of rich guys are gonna expend some testosterone over $400-$500 worth of gear.

Out opinion other than sympathy doesn't really matter. I could be convinced wither way - The new owner should have said - OBTW do the hurricane lines come with? PO should have taken them at the time.

I also understand PO - First blow coming - where did I leave those hurricane lines - Unless he is a total d!ck I think he must think they are his and he just forgot to take them at time of sale.

I have left stuff places that went unused for a while - I still own it in my opinion.

oh, well...
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Old 26-06-2014, 07:03   #21
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Re: Whose lines are those?

It's probably a gray area who owned the lines. Personal items is pretty generic and could be interpreted either way.

Where you have him is breaking and entering. Once sold, he has no right to enter the boat without the owners permission (or your's as his agent).

I was going to say it's irrelevant but long 1" diameter lines are pretty pricey. I would suggest the owner let him know that if they aren't returned he is going to involve the police and see what the response is.

I suspect your issue now is the old "possession is 9/10th's of the law". He has them. He can claim they weren't included and he can applogize for not notifying you that he was coming to get them. After that the police aren't likely going to want to get involved, which means small claims court and probably more hassle than it's worth.
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Old 26-06-2014, 07:16   #22
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Re: Whose lines are those?

I would be interested in seeing what the contract with the marina says about who owns things left on their property, especially for some length of time.
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Old 26-06-2014, 08:25   #23
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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When I make an offer, if it's on the boat at the time of the sea trial, I expect it to go with the boat and be included in the price I am offering.
As this thread demonstrates, your expectations have nothing to do with it.

A collision of expectations is a good description of this thread.
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Old 26-06-2014, 12:43   #24
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post

I will sing the whole song. The docks are not of the floating variety. Lines vary in size but this vessel's were larger than 1".

We require that you furnish the dock lines and anchor lines necessary to secure your vessel in the following manner:

...

Thanks, very interesting; Appreciate the review.

-Chris
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Old 26-06-2014, 12:48   #25
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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I like the idea of these hurricane lines.
Currently my Marina requires two lines each of a min of 5/8 line for each bow and stern line, and that takes up all the available cleat.
Do you add additional cleats for hurricane lines, or how do you attach them?

FWIW, when we've gone through hurricane prep -- twice over the last few years -- I've had some luck "facing" lines in different directions. One line with loop (spliced eye) on cleat, different line with figure 8 on cleat.

On mid-ships cleats, I've been able to get three on. One loop under/through and eye only on the one opposing "ear". Another loop under/through and eye on the other opposing "ear." Third line over top, in figure 8.

I can't do that with anything larger than 5/8" lines, though, with our particular cleats.

-Chris
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Old 26-06-2014, 12:50   #26
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Re: Whose lines are those?

I don't know if any real estate laws might apply to boats in the same way but most states have pretty clear laws that define the abandonment of personal items especially after the sale of the property or the vacancy of a rental. These laws usually stipulate that the new owner must take reasonable care of the property for a minimum amount of time (thinking 30-90 days) after which it legally becomes their property. So wether or not the items were listed on the inventory I would say that legally after 8 months with the PO not having contacted you in any way regarding this that these lines were your property and you could probably consider what he did as theft.
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Old 26-06-2014, 13:07   #27
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Re: Whose lines are those?

He's an ass. If he left them with the boat, and especially that long.. they are the new owners. I would assume there is wording in the sales contract stipulating boating items on the boat become part of the sale...?
If you can get a copy (know the broker? standard wording?) show it to the thief and tell him next step is calling the cops.
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Old 26-06-2014, 13:30   #28
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Re: Whose lines are those?

Unless specifically in the purchase contract, those lines are yours.

I'd do the courtesy call to him, but you need to be careful.

My wording in the past, without threatening, would go something like this, "Are you going to return the lines or will I have to institute an official action?".

You haven't threatened lawyer or police.

If they don't get returned, I would report the theft. It's not worth getting a lawyer involved, past perhaps having your lawyer send a letter, which frankly, has no impact other than being from your lawyer. Mine charges $20 for those.

YMMV
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Old 26-06-2014, 14:02   #29
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Re: Whose lines are those?

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Unless specifically in the purchase contract, those lines are yours.

If they don't get returned, I would report the theft. It's not worth getting a lawyer involved, past perhaps having your lawyer send a letter, which frankly, has no impact other than being from your lawyer. Mine charges $20 for those.

YMMV
The problem is since they are not specifically called out, it's unclear, in the legal sense, who owns them without seeing the exact purchase language. Even then it may not be clear.

You can report a theft and send a nasty lawyer letter but unless you are willing to put in more effort than it's worth, I would be suprised if anything happens.
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Old 26-06-2014, 14:35   #30
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Re: Whose lines are those?

This is an interesting thread and debate!

What I don't understand though, are some of the comments that it's not worth going to small claims court.

Small claims court is a piece of cake. Just spend a few bucks ($30 where I am) for the filing fee and let the judge sort it out. No lawyers for either side.

That said, it is true if the guy has no assets, then collecting is a whole 'nother matter, but you could certainly put a lien on any property after judgement or if you want to be a pain in the arse, sell the collections to a collections agency in exchange for a quick 50% of the judgement and let them harass the debtor.

Frankly, the biggest PITA about small claims court filing where I currently live is that you have to file on the court's carbon-paper form which means you need to locate an antique known as a "typewriter" ~

Oh, and btw, the odds are this guy won't even show up for the court date which means you'd win by default.
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