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Old 21-07-2015, 06:39   #106
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
...I'm just pointing out that it kinda sucks to go to a remote tropical island and have squawking chickens and goats, and tourists sitting around the pool with their Mai Tais, as the only remaining fauna...
Or wrabbits.

Island which spent £600,000 getting rid of rats over-run with rabbits - Telegraph

although they are very cute:

https://youtu.be/qM9YWm6T_hc

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Old 21-07-2015, 07:41   #107
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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This is well established in the scientific literature. See: Non-Native Species of the IRL Region for a comprehensive explanation and cites.
Obviously you didn't get the humor. An island pops up. Doesn't matter when, a million years ago or a year ago. Something finds it's way there. That is now "native". Except that... well... it CAME FROM somewhere else. It had to because before the island broke the surface it wasn't there to live on.

So every single life form on every single island is "non native". And every single life form on every single island is "invasive". It just "invaded" first.

Kinda like calling the American Indians "native". Well... they came from Asia after all. They just happened to be here before the Europeans arrived.

Just sayin.

And I have long understood the concepts behind the link you provided.
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Old 21-07-2015, 08:11   #108
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Yes, Dan, we've left because of bad vibes ashore, too. Seems safer. Your gut doesn't send out those warnings for nothing.

Ann
Agree with Ann re: vibes. Applies to being IN the water also. Diving and freediving everywhere I go, almost nothing phases me. Dived with big and numerous sharks numerous times… and yet, there are times when I have jumped in to the water and simply felt "wrong" and immediately swam to the ladder out out again. One such was in Five Islands Bay at Antigua, a place I had swum many times. That one day I jumped in and instantly had that hairs on the back of my neck feeling. The vis was poor, but that was standard at Five Islands. I got straight out again and seconds later saw the fin and back of the biggest tiger shark I have yet seen breaking water hard by the boat and moving fast.

Anyhow, I have found this thread fascinating and remarkable. Thanks especially for the contributions of those who have had direct experience or indirect contact with the sad incidents on Palmyra. To the naysayer(s) I can only say that were indeed insulting and mistaken. Also surprisingly unaware of the fact that while sailing is popular, the numbers of sailors who are also long distance voyagers is very small indeed and the community can be likened to the population of a largeish village, even spanning 40 or 50 years. It increases my respect for CF but does not surprise that we have so many connected with this incident chime in here.
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Old 21-07-2015, 08:31   #109
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
Obviously you didn't get the humor. An island pops up. Doesn't matter when, a million years ago or a year ago. Something finds it's way there. That is now "native". Except that... well... it CAME FROM somewhere else. It had to because before the island broke the surface it wasn't there to live on.

So every single life form on every single island is "non native". And every single life form on every single island is "invasive". It just "invaded" first.

Kinda like calling the American Indians "native". Well... they came from Asia after all. They just happened to be here before the Europeans arrived.

Just sayin.

And I have long understood the concepts behind the link you provided.
I am rather with you on this. The whole "native" species thing is, well, specious and displays a sort of Noahist block world view. All environments have been dynamic. Not merely novel islands. There is, for example, a big campaign to reintroduce "native" species to Scotland. One example is the beaver. Having grown up partly in Canada and partly in Scotland I personally felt that reintroducing beavers into a landscape almost completely denuded (by us) of its trees was not a particularly good idea… but that aside it made me consider what is "native" to scotland. The fact is around 15000 to 18000 years ago the native species were, well, whatever felt at home living on deep glaciers. Ecosystems have often been portrayed as a "delicate web", such that if one removes or adds anything the web will collapse. Well my years in Bermuda allowed me to observe a pretty much ground up man made ecosystem at close hand. The majority of what appear to be "native" species there (including the overwhelming majority of the flora), such as Kiskadees, several of the lizard species, cockroaches, ensign flies, tree frogs, toads, owls etc. etc. were introduced, in many cases deliberately (ok, not the cockroaches… actually they were at the beginning of a long sequence of rather inadequate biocontrol efforts, despite which are still very abundant). Point is, this introduced ecosystem, far from being a disaster, appears to work perfectly satisfactorily. By and large ecosystems are self organised, and not Noahistically ordained and put in place as a primal set that may never be disturbed.

This said I do think that some invasive species can be of great concern. However it remains to be seen to what extent in each case. There was a great panic a few years ago about Crown of Thorns starfish, which panic has now receded as scientists have come to realise that big outbreaks are rather akin to bushfires in the landscape: destructive and creative at once. We have a tendency to wish to "manage" everything, and often our management itself is the real problem, just as fire prevention can, in certain cases, cause the biggest fires (as the aboriginals in Oz well understood).

All in all, I think Jim nailed it on this one: WE are the most problematic invasive species by FAR.

One footnote on the rat thing in this problem which relates to our intervention: while eradication may seem to have been a good idea, was importing tens of thousands of pounds of poison bait and showering the island with it really part of what made that idea good?
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Old 21-07-2015, 11:40   #110
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Tropical Escape, never underestimate the chicken...have you ever heard of "hen pecked?"....many a man has heard of this dreaded phenomenon. Rat snakes are smarter than you think. Or how about, "mad, as a wet hen?"
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Old 21-07-2015, 12:24   #111
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Tropical Escape, never underestimate the chicken...have you ever heard of "hen pecked?"....many a man has heard of this dreaded phenomenon. Rat snakes are smarter than you think. Or how about, "mad, as a wet hen?"
We had chickens for a few years. PITA. I did not want them at all but one of the kids and the wifey wanted chickens so we got chickens.

First of all "chicken feed" being chicken feed, meaning cheap or inexpensive, was not true. I could buy eggs from the store cheaper and with better quality.

One of our favorite hens was like a puppy dog. She would follow us around the yard and sit in your lap to get petted. She was hen pecked to death by the $%^&*( hen that ruled the roost. We eventually gave that hen away. I wanted to eat her but I was over ruled. I suspect the person that took the hen put her in the pot.

While the chickens could be brutal to each other, and I suspect they would kill mice and such if they got a hold of them, they were very afraid of snakes. We had a black snake get into the hen house twice and get a couple of eggs each visit. Or maybe it was two black snakes. We have plenty of them and I like having them around.

A rooster might have attacked the snake but we did not have one. Thank goodness.

I have seen the black snakes get into our bushes and wipe out tests of young birds. We did not really like that at all.... That one snake went through the lines of bushes and took out a handful of bird nests in less than an hour. I have seen one of the black snakes climbing trees and they do it effortlessly. In fact, I have seen a black snake climb the side of our house to get on the roof. Amazing to watch a snake climb a vertical wall... Seen them do it a couple of times.

Later,
Dan
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Old 21-07-2015, 12:41   #112
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Snakes and Cats are brutal to songbirds. Raccoons too.

I hate cats.
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Old 21-07-2015, 13:46   #113
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

NOTICE TO MARINERS: Some humor intended in the following:

AMAZING!

That link to the Hebridean island which spent £600,000 getting rid of rats…..

It had only 10,000 rats on it. (fewer that the Palmyra situation with estimated 26,000 rats)

And…ONLY 20 people live on the island.

WOW.

Cost? £600,000 was spent on killing rats to benefit the 20 people (and some indigenous mice and some birds).

Seems like it would have been a nice full time job (employment) for a few "Rat Catchers" with some rat terriers etc.

Or, a ideal place for starting a "Rat Terrier" breeding and training facility. I can imagine the marketing blurb: "Our Rat Terriers are Free Range Terriers, trained in the healthy fresh air and grassy seaside location known as the Royal Rat Terrier Reserve."

FYI: The Rat Terrier actually holds the record for killing 2,501 rats in a seven hour span in an infested barn. SOURCE: HISTORY OF THE RAT TERRIER

And so the cycle of predation would be returned to "normal."
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Old 21-07-2015, 13:49   #114
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by Ericson38 View Post
Was Sea Wind one of Jack Kelly's Peterson 46 or 44s ?
I know the Sea Wind was a 38 foot ketch and homebuilt.

Does anyone else have more info?
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Old 21-07-2015, 19:11   #115
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
We had chickens for a few years. PITA. I did not want them at all but one of the kids and the wifey wanted chickens so we got chickens.

First of all "chicken feed" being chicken feed, meaning cheap or inexpensive, was not true. I could buy eggs from the store cheaper and with better quality.

One of our favorite hens was like a puppy dog. She would follow us around the yard and sit in your lap to get petted. She was hen pecked to death by the $%^&*( hen that ruled the roost. We eventually gave that hen away. I wanted to eat her but I was over ruled. I suspect the person that took the hen put her in the pot.

While the chickens could be brutal to each other, and I suspect they would kill mice and such if they got a hold of them, they were very afraid of snakes. We had a black snake get into the hen house twice and get a couple of eggs each visit. Or maybe it was two black snakes. We have plenty of them and I like having them around.

A rooster might have attacked the snake but we did not have one. Thank goodness.

I have seen the black snakes get into our bushes and wipe out tests of young birds. We did not really like that at all.... That one snake went through the lines of bushes and took out a handful of bird nests in less than an hour. I have seen one of the black snakes climbing trees and they do it effortlessly. In fact, I have seen a black snake climb the side of our house to get on the roof. Amazing to watch a snake climb a vertical wall... Seen them do it a couple of times.

Later,
Dan
The price of eggs(chicken) has just about doubled in the last year..The coon(ghost coon!!) got my last chicken a few weeks back,had 18 to start" Red Comets" some would lay twice a day! I saw a black snake go vertical on a Poplar tree once.. Theres a way to make money while crusing,start a floating egg farm...
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Old 22-07-2015, 08:39   #116
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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The price of eggs(chicken) has just about doubled in the last year..The coon(ghost coon!!) got my last chicken a few weeks back,had 18 to start" Red Comets" some would lay twice a day! I saw a black snake go vertical on a Poplar tree once.. Theres a way to make money while crusing,start a floating egg farm...
We started with six chicks.

For those that don't know, a Chicken Tractor is nothing more than a moveable chicken house/hen house. The idea is to be able to move the chickens around from place to place.

I built a Chicken TANK! I don't mean a water tank either.

We have all sorts of critters that like chicken, owls, hawks, snakes, foxes, and coyotes. Coyote have killed deer within feet of our house, have feed that close to the house, and dropped deer bones right next to the porch.

For us to have chickens we needed a Chicken Tank to protect the chickens. We would see owls at sun set looking at the chickens. The wife came home one day and a hawk was on the ground near the Chicken Tank. On another day, the hawk was hanging on the side of the Chicken Tank.

After snow storms, we would see fox tracks circling the fence that surrounded the Chicken Tank. Eventually, the fox and/or coyotes tore holes in the fence but the still could not defeat the defenses of the Chicken Tank!

However, we would let the chickens out of the Chicken tank in the afternoon and let them free range in an area with a six foot fence. For the chickens, the grass was greener on the other side of the fence.... Well one chicken fed a fox.

The Head Hen hen pecked our favorite hen to death so the Head Hen was removed. We now had three hens which were not giving us enough eggs. By now the wifey and child were tired of taking care of chickens so we gave the survivors to a foster home that fostered chickens.

The irony, is that by the time this happened, chicken feed prices started to fall and egg prices started to rise. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

Later,
Dan
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Old 22-07-2015, 11:04   #117
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Back to Palmyra, well sorta.

We watched this documentary last night,Before the Operations Begin | Television | NZ On Screen , that was filmed from 1999. It is about a guy, sounds like he was in his late 50s, that buys and refits a boat and goes off with some friends and adult children to Vanuatu. Very good film.

Along the way the run into Heidi and Wolfgang Hass. There is an article in the latest issue of Passagemaker magazine about the Hass's. Tis a small world.

Later,
Dan
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Old 23-07-2015, 13:13   #118
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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I know the Sea Wind was a 38 foot ketch and homebuilt.

Does anyone else have more info?
Right....thanks.
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Old 15-05-2017, 20:26   #119
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Not sure how I missed this thread. I try to check in once in awhile.

I've been to Palmyra twice. Feb-May 1985 and again Feb-Apr 1994. (3-month stay each visit)

I sailed from Long Beach Ca to Hawaii in 1984 and I was headed for the SoPac. I was talking to some yachties at the Hawaii Yacht Club and they were talking about going to Palmyra. I found the subject interesting so I went to the library to see what I could find on Palmyra (no internet back then). In my research I found some newspaper articles about the murder that took place there. In one of the articles they listed the name of the owners of the Island (Leslie and Duddly Fullard-Leo). Just for kicks, I picked up a phone book and Duddly's ph # was listed.

I picked up the phone and sure enough he answered. I told him of my plans and asked if I could have permission to visit the Island. We had quite a nice discussion and he said that he would talk to his brother and call me back (my brother lived in Honolulu at the time). He called me back at my brother's the next day and invited me to his house and he would show me some pictures.

When I got to his house, the entire family was there. He invited me to dinner and we spent the next 6 hours going over slides (pics) of when he and his brother had stayed on the island for 6 months in the early 70's. He also gave me a chart of the island and marked where several interesting things were located, including the Navy hospital.

Anyway, I sailed to Palmyra the following week, fell in love with the place and lived off the island for 3 months.

A few months before I arrived, some moron tried to land an airplane on the island (twin engine Beach Bonanza). Of course he wrecked the plane because the runway that was on the marine chart was overgrown. The USCG picked them up a few weeks later but the plane was still there.

During WWII the Navy conscripted the Island as part of the war effort. They dredged an entrance for large ships and built a submarine refueling base there. At one time, there were 3,000 troops on the island. In 1957 the Fullard Leo family sued the Navy to get off of the Island. One day the Admiral in charge ordered all of the troops onto the ships and they pulled out. They left all the vehicles, buildings, generators, heavy equipment, workshops, galley etc just as though they were still there. Beds made and shelves stocked in the workshop. There were also 4, 60,000G bunkers full of diesel fuel.

Arriving there was pretty straight forward as there was a cut in the palm tree forest, from one side of the island to the other. When we were lined up to see all the way through the cut, it was a perfect range marker for entry. There are plenty of ship wrecks around the island that showed not many people knew about that cut.

I'll dispel a few non-true items posted here.

1. There is an abundance of rain water there and it was naturally collected in a huge concrete reservoir built by the Navy. Enough to supply 3,000 troups.

2. The island has a lot of hermit crabs but certainly not enough to cause an issue.

3. The coconut palms had rats in them but certainly not enough to be a huge issue because there were millions of coconuts.

4. I saw wind there up to 50knts. The anchorage never once became uncomfortable. Although, it was a little tricky anchoring and we had to use 10:1 scope to keep from dragging.

5. I dove there every day. I was constantly followed by black tip sharks but they were never a concern. They were more afraid of me than I was of them. Any sudden move and they would scatter like chickens.

6. There was an abundance of edible fish. Ciguatera was an issue in some fish. Always carry a book on ocean fish so that you can ID what fish may have it.

I could go on forever. If you have any (serious) questions, please ask.

Here is a pic of me and another yachtie repairing my rudder in the workshop, using the hydraulics from an grader.
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Old 15-05-2017, 20:37   #120
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
I know the Sea Wind was a 38 foot ketch and homebuilt.

Does anyone else have more info?
I know the fate of Sea Wind.

She was anchored in Ke'ehi Lagoon in Hawaii for many years. When the State of Hawaii put moorings in, she was moved to a mooring where she sunk during Hurricane Iniki in 1992. The reason that I know this is bacause she was on a mooring next to mine and I watched here sink. She is still sitting on the bottom today and you can see her grave on GoogleEarth.
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