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Old 17-07-2015, 08:10   #61
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
He did also seems to have accused others who have posted on this thread for lying. If one was paying attention, one would realize that people were not lying and there was some interesting information posted. Twas pretty easy to connect some dots.

Just a needle?

Later,
Dan
Its been a very interesting thread.

I was involved, hasten to add, in a medical sense, with a particular murder in Florida that stands out in my mind. They caught the guy and samples were taken from him. He was quiet during the procedures and yet there something about him that was pretty unnerving. A lack of something human in terms of feeling or interaction. Someone you could never trust. His crime was rape and murder. Pretty brutal. One of the femal police officers stated that in her opinion, some people are just born that way and nothing you can do will ever change it.

I got a similar feel reading about this man on Palmyra.


And yes.. Just a needle......
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Old 17-07-2015, 08:14   #62
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Yeah, What RiggerBruce said would certainly have set off alarms for me.

Why the heck did not they not leave if they thought they were going to die....

Palmyra is a place I would like to see along with Johnson Island.

Later,
Dan
You probably mean Johnston Atoll. Are you sure you want to go there? Remember those weapons of mass destruction that saddam was supposed to have but didn't? Well it turns out they were really on Johnston. Every time WMD such as Sarin or Ricin passed its use by date it was shipped to Johnston. The Pentagon say the place has been decontaminated.

Do you want to go test for us? Maybe they missed a section.


Try Midway instead.
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Old 17-07-2015, 08:22   #63
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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...

I was involved, hasten to add, in a medical sense, with a particular murder in Florida that stands out in my mind. They caught the guy and samples were taken from him. He was quiet during the procedures and yet there something about him that was pretty unnerving. A lack of something human in terms of feeling or interaction. Someone you could never trust. His crime was rape and murder. Pretty brutal. One of the femal police officers stated that in her opinion, some people are just born that way and nothing you can do will ever change it.

I got a similar feel reading about this man on Palmyra.
...
I learned many years ago to trust my feelings in certain situations and impressions of people which is why I asked about "vibes." From what was posted, there certainly seems to have been some pretty bad vibes from the murderers.

I am afraid most bad people are made to be bad but some are just born bad. Years ago, I read an article about Jeffery Dahlmer's dad talking to a stranger on a plane flight. It is often easy to talk to a stranger which is what the dad did on the flight. He knew there was something wrong with his kid and he and is ex wife tried to everything they could to help out their child but nothing seemed to work...

I still want to see Palmyra.

Later,
Dan
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Old 17-07-2015, 08:49   #64
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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I just remembered I met those guys form the Spanish silver ship just the other day..... Seriously, this "personal" experience is acknowledged as 2nd or 3rd hand and likely just a BS story told to impress new (at the time) cruisers. But hey, whatever.
Sorry BoatGuy, but Ann isn't the only one here old enough to have known the Grahams personally. I wouldn't call them friends, but they were friends of my parents, and I recall time in the cockpit of Sea Wind visiting in San Diego before they left for Palmyra. Back then the ocean-crossing cruising community was pretty small.

And I recall the moment my Mom got the news (kind of like recalling when Kennedy was shot). It was a big deal to her. You see, even way back then, we had forums just like this, only they were on paper. And one of the most used was the SSCA Bulletin. When you got to port you wrote a letter with your experiences, tips on anchorages, immigration and customs, the best anchor, whether to carry a gun, the best recipe for banana bread. And you mailed that letter to some very nice volunteers in Florida who had mostly swallowed the anchor. Those volunteers typed up your accounts, combined them with the experiences of many other sailors, and printed them all out in a little booklet, and mailed it back out.

And when you got into a new port one of the first things you did was go in search of the mail package you were hoping had arrived, and was being held at some friendly place. And you read the Bulletin and you caught up with the news about all the cruising friends you hadn't seen in a while. I bet if I went up to my Mom's house I could still find the paper copy of the Bulletin we received somewhere in Central America (see, my memory isn't good enough to recall exactly which country) that held the news about the Grahams.

Some of us are that old. And still sail.
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Old 17-07-2015, 09:49   #65
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Its been a very interesting thread.

I was involved, hasten to add, in a medical sense, with a particular murder in Florida that stands out in my mind. They caught the guy and samples were taken from him. He was quiet during the procedures and yet there something about him that was pretty unnerving. A lack of something human in terms of feeling or interaction. Someone you could never trust. His crime was rape and murder. Pretty brutal. One of the femal police officers stated that in her opinion, some people are just born that way and nothing you can do will ever change it.

I got a similar feel reading about this man on Palmyra.
Indeed, there are enough people like this that there is a medical term for it,
(but you knew that ):

"Antisocial (or dissocial) personality disorder is characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. There may be an impoverished moral sense or conscience and a history of crime, legal problems, and impulsive and aggressive behavior."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiso...ality_disorder
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Old 17-07-2015, 13:07   #66
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Midway is now part of a Federal Marine Sanctuary. The administrators are really A holes about visiting there. One boat made an emergency stop a while back and nearly ended up with their boat confiscated. Cross Midway off your list unless you can make a bonafide research need to visit.
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Old 17-07-2015, 13:41   #67
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Midway is now part of a Federal Marine Sanctuary. The administrators are really A holes about visiting there. One boat made an emergency stop a while back and nearly ended up with their boat confiscated. Cross Midway off your list unless you can make a bonafide research need to visit.
My experience with Midway is just the opposite, and under the current National Wildlife Refuge administrators. Yes, they are a pain to deal with, but to me visiting Midway is well, well, well worth the effort. I've been trying to figure out when I can get back that way. The experience is like nothing I have had anywhere else.

We found both the administration (in Hawaii) and the local staff (on the island) very welcoming and friendly. But, we weren't stopping by un-announced, we jumped through the hoops.
  1. Contact the administrator in Hawaii early
  2. Offer to work, and do something useful (we worked on both their electrical and water systems and made significant upgrades, which enhanced the lifestyle of the resident scientists)
  3. Keep them apprised of your schedule in detail. For us this resulted in SailMail position updates every day to both Hawaii and Midway.
  4. Don't expect any supplies whatsoever.
We stayed for two weeks. At the end the staff arranged for a few extra fresh veggies and other assorted groceries to make it onto the supply plane so we could have them when we left (contradicts #4 above, but points out how friendly they really were). We worked our butts off, but also had a wonderful time and got plenty of time with the animals.

While we were there two different boats got turned away because they had not made arrangements in advance. One was not allowed to enter the lagoon, the other did get an overnight out of it based on "emergency". They are pretty strict about it, but if you are willing to jump through the hoops...

If you really want to go (it is a long trip from anywhere) start with their volunteer process (http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Midway_Ato...involved.html)). Normally they require a one-month commitment (to make the transportation worth their while), but if you can provide your own transport, and convince them you are genuinely willing to participate, we found them quite accommodating.

That's our experience, YMMV.
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Old 17-07-2015, 15:29   #68
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

Since this story involves me as well as Ann, I'm gonna step in with some details. Perhaps they will convince Boatguy of our truthfulness.

We met Ed and Marilyn standing in a check out line in Hanelei Bay in 1983. We had recently completed the crossing from San Francisco in our Yankee 30, and were preparing for the return trip. They recognized us as cruisers and after a bit of conversation, offered us the use of their car to do some exploring. Naturally we accepted and had a trip around the island, followed by a dinner at their house. It was during that dinner that the story emerged.

They were friends of the victims, and had sailed to Palmyra in their own boat, a kettenberg 50. The Grahams soon had spoken about their misgivings, and as a result of that and some interactions with Buck, Ed and marilyn decided to leave ASAP. They tried to convince the Grahams to go as well, but without success. Much disturbed, they returned to Oahu and their life aboard in the Alawai marina. Some time later, Ed saw the Sea Wind enter the harbour... but she had a different name and was disguised somewhat, and Buck was at the helm. Horrified, he notified the authorities, and the rest is history. Ed and Marilyn were so upset by the whole episode that they sold their boat and moved ashore to Hanelei.

We remained in contact with Ed and Marilyn, and some years later when the trial began, they came to SF to testify, and we renewed our friendship... even took them for a daysail in SF Bay. The whole experience of the trial was torture for them, and they were quite distressed when they left to return to Hawaii. We exchanged a few more letters, but never again saw them. This was many years ago, and they were older than us, and I suspect that they are no longer with us to tell again how those events scarred their lives.


I don't personally believe that a place can be "haunted" or cursed. I suspect that the remoteness of Palmyra has meant that anti-social types like Buck would view it as a haven, and that like a spider, when someone became stuck in his web he consumed them (metaphorically).

Being that I don't watch TV, I believe that there must be some other source for this tale. Personal experience comes to mind...

Jim
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Old 17-07-2015, 15:48   #69
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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I really doubt anyone on here is personal friends or connected in anyway with a murder that occurred in 1974. Maybe just old enough to confuse their personal experiences with a TV miniseries.
Boatguy30:

Thank you for thinking I am younger than I am. I wish it were so.

As it happens, I never did see the mini-series you mention: I was out cruising.

As there is no way to convince someone who doesn't want to change his mind, that I am telling the truth and not terribly confused at the moment, I'll simply refer you and anyone else interested back to my original post in this thread, and let it go. "Whatever," does not constitute an apology.

What happened to Muff and Mac is part of the reason why I think there is nothing cute or funny about pirates.

To all you guys who were supportive of me in this little episode, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Ann
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Old 17-07-2015, 16:20   #70
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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I just remembered I met those guys form the Spanish silver ship just the other day..... Seriously, this "personal" experience is acknowledged as 2nd or 3rd hand and likely just a BS story told to impress new (at the time) cruisers. But hey, whatever.
I know I get a little cranky when I run outta Prozac?
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Old 17-07-2015, 16:35   #71
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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You probably mean Johnston Atoll. Are you sure you want to go there? Remember those weapons of mass destruction that saddam was supposed to have but didn't? Well it turns out they were really on Johnston. Every time WMD such as Sarin or Ricin passed its use by date it was shipped to Johnston. The Pentagon say the place has been decontaminated.

Do you want to go test for us? Maybe they missed a section.


Try Midway instead.
Yes, I would like to visit Johnston Atoll just for the reasons you mention. The place has quite a bit of interesting history.

You left out the missiles with nukes on board that were self destructed spreading radioactive materials over the island parts of the atoll and biological weapon tests. This was all cleaned but and I have seen photos of the dump site(s) but I don't think I would go around digging on the islands.

Still want to see the place. I have read the island was off limits but it was also offered for sale a few years ago.

Midway is on the list as is Wake Island and Iwo Jima. We have a big list. But the chances of us getting on Iwo are about 0.0000001119999. Visiting Wake is not much better.

Later,
Dan
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Old 17-07-2015, 16:50   #72
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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...

They were friends of the victims, and had sailed to Palmyra in their own boat, a kettenberg 50. The Grahams soon had spoken about their misgivings, and as a result of that and some interactions with Buck, Ed and marilyn decided to leave ASAP. They tried to convince the Grahams to go as well, but without success. Much disturbed, they returned to Oahu and their life aboard in the Alawai marina. Some time later, Ed saw the Sea Wind enter the harbour... but she had a different name and was disguised somewhat, and Buck was at the helm. Horrified, he notified the authorities, and the rest is history. Ed and Marilyn were so upset by the whole episode that they sold their boat and moved ashore to Hanelei.
To state the obvious, its really sad the Grahams did not leave when Ed and Marilyn tried to get them to go. The real mystery in this is why the Grahams did not sail away when they had misgivings, had discussions about what was happening and saw other people leave because of those issues...

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...
We remained in contact with Ed and Marilyn, and some years later when the trial began, they came to SF to testify, and we renewed our friendship... even took them for a daysail in SF Bay. The whole experience of the trial was torture for them, and they were quite distressed when they left to return to Hawaii. We exchanged a few more letters, but never again saw them. This was many years ago, and they were older than us, and I suspect that they are no longer with us to tell again how those events scarred their lives.
...
It is really awful that they stopped sailing because of this incident not to mentioned how it affected them.

I have read of various research over the years that says instead of there being six degrees of separation between us and anyone else in the world, there is anywhere from about 3.5 to 5.5 degrees in a digital world. The world is getting smaller and the cruising world has always been small. Even prior to the Information Age.

Thank you and others for sharing these personal connections.

Later,
Dan
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Old 17-07-2015, 19:58   #73
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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I really doubt anyone on here is personal friends or connected in anyway with a murder that occurred in 1974. Maybe just old enough to confuse their personal experiences with a TV miniseries.




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Old 17-07-2015, 20:00   #74
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

I meant to say that I agree this comment calls for an apology
I'm a relative newly on the forum and mostly a lurker but I've read enough of Anne's posts to believe what she says


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Old 17-07-2015, 20:06   #75
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Re: Who's Been to Palmyra?

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Yes, I would like to visit Johnston Atoll just for the reasons you mention. The place has quite a bit of interesting history.

You left out the missiles with nukes on board that were self destructed spreading radioactive materials over the island parts of the atoll and biological weapon tests. This was all cleaned but and I have seen photos of the dump site(s) but I don't think I would go around digging on the islands.

Still want to see the place. I have read the island was off limits but it was also offered for sale a few years ago.

Midway is on the list as is Wake Island and Iwo Jima. We have a big list. But the chances of us getting on Iwo are about 0.0000001119999. Visiting Wake is not much better.

Later,
Dan
So you trust the military to get a cleanup operation right ?

WOW !
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