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Old 22-09-2011, 09:36   #61
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by lorenzo b View Post
As you very well know, the boat in Lake County was sailing at night without lights when it was hit.
At least that was what was alleged by the power boater who hit them at ~ 70 MPH. Several witnesses reported seeing the sailboat with lights ON. That the power boater was a law enforcement officer and the accident was investigated by his buddies makes one think it's just possible that the evidence and investigation were skewed in his benefit.
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Old 22-09-2011, 09:40   #62
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

If I remember the Dinius case correctly. Dinius was at the tiller but the boat was stationary as there was negligible wind. He was under sail. While he had been drinking there was no evidence that he had drunk much or was impaired. The people on the boat said the nav lights were on as did a witness who saw the lights from the shore.

The powerboat that hit them was traveling at over 40mph in the dark driven by someone who had been drinking at a bar for a substantial length of time. The powerboat hit the sailboat without turning or slowing down. The driver was an off duty officer of the local police. A passenger on the sailboat was killed.

Dinius was charged with man slaughter because his hand was on the tiller of a stationary sailboat at the moment the powerboat slammed into them. The police officer was not charged.

The attempted coverup in the case resulted in the firing or resignation of several law enforcement officials including a DA.

Carl
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Old 22-09-2011, 09:55   #63
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

To the original PO. It amazes me how people feel that "someone must pay" when something bad happens that is not entirely their own fault.

I live in a fairly wooded suburban town with a good number of deer. Last year a deer bounded out of the woods landing on a passing car breaking its windshield. The woman who was driving the car was uninjured but reported in the local newspaper that she had walked up the nearby driveways looing for a property owner to pay for the wild deer's damage to her car.

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Old 22-09-2011, 10:05   #64
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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A boat is not a car. In a car, the driver is the driver, regardless of who owns the vehicle. In a boat, the person at the helm is often not the master. To answer the question in the original post by saying, "Well, here's how it's handled in a car" is, at best, naive.

The sad story of Dinius Bismark is not about nautical protocol. It's about police corruption and judicial incompetence.
in that you aren't the driver is correct...but you as the owner can be held liable for the actions of ANY driver...including someone who stole your car...
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Old 22-09-2011, 10:12   #65
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Big difference between "understood and/or paid crew" and a guest...

I think you would be hard pressed to legally get AND should be ashamed to ask for compensation from a guest.

And I think you're absolutely wrong about the "ashamed" part. It's all about what understanding you have going in.
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Old 22-09-2011, 10:24   #66
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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And I think you're absolutely wrong about the "ashamed" part. It's all about what understanding you have going in.
Yeah...I'm that stupid.....

What I'm saying is that a boat owner should NEVER expect friends or guests to pay...there should be NO undestanding...

As I stated in my other post...understood or paid crew may be a different story...but even that's thin...
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Old 22-09-2011, 10:24   #67
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by mtembene View Post
It is true that I don't expect to crew on this fellows boat again. It is also true that the other crew member and myself have agreed to pay for some of the damages that were incurred. While we don't have to do this I believe that assisting with the cost of the repairs is a good thing to do.

M
I hope the owner is grateful since that is a very generous thing to do.

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Most logs are almost impossible to see as yjey are awash and not floating above the surface.
I'd have to disagree with this. If it were true sailing in the PNW would be a terrifying thing. If they haven't been in the water long they'll be floating parttially above the water and if they are a deadhead there are still often signs of their presence which is a fortunate thing; I saw one about the size of a VW floating in Pylades Channel recently!

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Drilled through our heads when taking classes for our captains licenses was the fact that the captain and only the captain is responsible for the boat. Always. No exceptions.
For the operation of the vessel surely since the owner is responsible for the maintainance although the skipper would be required to know that the correct saftey equipment is onboard and functional before casting off.

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
And I think you're absolutely wrong about the "ashamed" part. It's all about what understanding you have going in.
It isn't entirely about what understanding you have. Certain responsibilities can't be legally abdicated. Of course whether someone should be ashamed or not is a judgement call.
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Old 22-09-2011, 10:59   #68
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Yeah...I'm that stupid.....

What I'm saying is that a boat owner should NEVER expect friends or guests to pay...there should be NO undestanding...

As I stated in my other post...understood or paid crew may be a different story...but even that's thin...

I have the opposite view. I think paid crew has accepted a higher level of responsibility, but if friends agree to share costs, then they agree to share costs.
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Old 22-09-2011, 12:06   #69
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

Given the large response to my original posting I thought that it would be appropriate for me to tell everyone what I am going to do.

I am going to pay 1/3 of the boat owners insurance deductible up to a maximum of $667. (Did I mention that the owner wanted to keep his insurance company out of the picture and paid for all the repairs personally). Anything above and beyond the deductible the owner can worry about himself.

Thank you for all of your responses.

M
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Old 22-09-2011, 12:21   #70
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Solo or accompanied......
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Old 22-09-2011, 13:14   #71
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

I'm a little disappointed about all the rules, laws, paid crew/unpaid crew, skipper verse owner, cars, etc getting throw around her.......... but it doesn't really appear some people are concerned about just doing what is right!

And if the parties can not agree what is right then someone in the group is an ass and no discussion is going to change anything!
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Old 22-09-2011, 13:31   #72
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by lorenzo b View Post
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" In a car, the driver is the driver, regardless of who owns the vehicle."

I beg to differ. If someone steals your car and does damage, you will be held responsible.
The case of Dinius Bismark hinges on whether or not his running lights were on, and the fact that he was drunk at the time, and whether or not the boat that hit him was negligent. It's still in the courts as I understand.
He was charged because he was at the helm drunk when someone got killed, and nautical protocol is germane.
(Dinius Bismark) has been cleared of all charges in a fatal boat crash on Clear Lake three years ago, has now filed a claim against Lake County for wrongful prosecution.

Bismarck Dinius files claim against Lake County | abc7news.com

BTW, he was not "Drunk" he had one glass of wine. The operator of the other boat (The Deputy) was Drunk.
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Old 22-09-2011, 13:32   #73
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I'm a little disappointed about all the rules, laws, paid crew/unpaid crew, skipper verse owner, cars, etc getting throw around her.......... but it doesn't really appear some people are concerned about just doing what is right!

And if the parties can not agree what is right then someone in the group is an ass and no discussion is going to change anything!
Maybe it's just that people's opinions of what is right varies.

If you and I aren't going to sail on the same boat together, it doesn't matter. If we are, then we need to sort it out between ourselves.
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Old 22-09-2011, 13:33   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtembene
Given the large response to my original posting I thought that it would be appropriate for me to tell everyone what I am going to do.

I am going to pay 1/3 of the boat owners insurance deductible up to a maximum of $667. (Did I mention that the owner wanted to keep his insurance company out of the picture and paid for all the repairs personally). Anything above and beyond the deductible the owner can worry about himself.

Thank you for all of your responses.

M
That's very generous.

Are you intending to remain friends with this owner?

I would never invite anyone on my boat and expect them to pay for anything unless I specifically told them not to do something and they did it.

I don't understand this owners thought process (logic) at all.
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Old 22-09-2011, 13:38   #75
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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To the original PO. It amazes me how people feel that "someone must pay" when something bad happens that is not entirely their own fault.

I live in a fairly wooded suburban town with a good number of deer. Last year a deer bounded out of the woods landing on a passing car breaking its windshield. The woman who was driving the car was uninjured but reported in the local newspaper that she had walked up the nearby driveways looing for a property owner to pay for the wild deer's damage to her car.

Carl
I guess they should have moved that deer crossing sign in a better lighted place down the road so the deer would not be hit.
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