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Old 21-09-2011, 16:07   #31
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

I am not an experienced salty sailor and cannot speak from any knowledge of the law, but from a common sense and equitable approach I would suggest that the answer depends upon various factors:

1 - did the skipper know of the helm's experience and abilities - if helm was inexperienced then he/she should have been supervised and could not be deemed responsible - skipper must accept responsibility

2 - if helm was experienced then was he/she negligent? If the log had branches extending from the water in clear daylight and helm is deemed competent and experienced then perhaps helm should accept a moral duty to pay (see below as to amount). If the log was submerged then cannot be deemed to be helm's fault

3 - the skipper cannot expect helm (if negligent) or all of crew (if a no fault incident) to pay any more than the deductible, and if he doesn't want to claim then that is his prerogative (and expense)

4 - if no fault incident should the crew pay - hmmm, a good way for skipper to lose friends but he should certainly advise that as a ground rule before taking on guests!

Just my view fwiw
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:07   #32
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I say the skipper/owner, who was in the cockpit on the boat, is just an idiot!

And we're talking a log here that the helmsman may not even have seen. I've hit a few logs out in the open, who would have expected them as normally don't see it until after the bump againist the hull? Not like the helmsman drove the boat up onto a rocky island etc. (still the skippers problem)

Sounds like you and your friends wouldn't sail on this boat again.

In fact maritime law requires a second person as lookout PRECISELY because the helmsman can't see everything.
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:11   #33
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Originally Posted by mtembene
It is true that I don't expect to crew on this fellows boat again. It is also true that the other crew member and myself have agreed to pay for some of the damages that were incurred. While we don't have to do this I believe that assisting with the cost of the repairs is a good thing to do.

M
Wow nice of you. You were neither the owner or helmsman. Why would you do that. You obviously don't feel you should have or you would not bring it to the forum. Don't think you can fault the owner if you volunteered.
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:11   #34
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Agree with the rest - the skipper/owner is responsible. Helping certainly isn't a bad move, but not required.

Even when we charter and I'm the Captain, I wouldn't EXPECT anyone else to pitch in if their was damage and we needed to pay for it. I certainly would appreciate it, but wouldn't expect.

In a charter situation I would like to see an agreement among all that for unavoidable accidents we would all chip in. Might be a good policy on a long trip on my boat, now that I think of it, but there would be gray areas. Someone could complain that the design of the dodger impaired their field of view or something ... but people need to sort these things out BEFORE they happen ...

and not wanting to use the insurance? I think everyone should spit the deductible and then go to the insurance. If I paid for the repairs instead I would want my name on the title as part owner.
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:16   #35
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

The skipper/owner is responsible. The others are guest and should be treated as such! Asking them to pay is the ultimate act of cheapness!
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:16   #36
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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In a charter situation I would like to see an agreement among all that for unavoidable accidents we would all chip in.
Nobody would charter a boat with that provision. That is what INSURANCE is for. In a charter situation, you are paying for that insurance. They can all chip in after the accident that's up to them. And then only if it wasn't caused by negligence on the captains part. Also not to exceed the deductible.

If, again in a charter situation, the captain needed the money to effect repair in some off track port, OK, I would lend it. It would be repaid upon arrival at the home port or a lien would be placed on the boat.
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:21   #37
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

I'd blame the log , just to be different
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:30   #38
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The skipper/owner as it appears to be one in the same. He chose to participate in whatever other activity happening in the cockpit. His choice and his responsibility. When I travel an area of high traffic and possible debris I ask all people to help me see traffic and debris. We can talk about whatever but I ask for eyes to be on the water. If someone failed to catch a log or boat it's still my fault. SC
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:37   #39
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
In fact maritime law requires a second person as lookout PRECISELY because the helmsman can't see everything.
And exactly where does it say that????

Maintain a proper lookout yes...but NO WHERE I know of does it say who is a lookout.
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Old 21-09-2011, 16:41   #40
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

and maintain a lookup doesn't mean it has to be a second person.........but now we will start a new discussion about the "rules"
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Old 21-09-2011, 20:25   #41
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

THE INSURANCE COMPANY, unless in California where they would probably blame the helmsman.

Most logs are almost impossible to see as yjey are awash and not floating above the surface.
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Old 21-09-2011, 20:37   #42
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

You would be a sucker to pay anything.

It is just another cheap bast*** owner....I have seen enough of them over the years.
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Old 21-09-2011, 21:07   #43
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

Skipper! Not the owner, not the helmsman, but the skipper.

This is something taught in ASA 101 on the very first day of the first sailing lesson. In the textrbook Fundamentals of Sailing, on page 24: "The skipper (whether on deck, at the wheel, or taking a nap below) is the person responsible for the safe operation of the vessel." That's followed by two pages describing everything for which the skipper is responsible.

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Old 21-09-2011, 21:16   #44
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

I am not a lawyer, but volunteering to pay part of it might be seen as an admission of liability. And if you are liable for part of it you might resonably be found to be liable for all of it.

It would be much better to admit nothing.
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Old 21-09-2011, 21:31   #45
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Re: Who Pays when Accidents Happen

As both an owner and a former charterer, I say the owner has really big ones. I cannot imagine blaming anyone but me if something happens and I am in the cockpit.
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