Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-02-2010, 19:31   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
maxingout's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Pierce, Phoenix
Boat: Privilege 39 Catamaran, Exit Only
Posts: 2,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowshoes View Post
Dave,

How did you add ballast to your Westsail and how much was needed to make a difference ?
I was in the Navy at the time, and I went to the navy dump and did some dump picking. They had lots of heavy one inch rebar on the junk pile. I cut the rebar into lengths that would fit into the bilge. I laid sections of rebar side by side, and layer upon layer into several molds. Then I poured catalyzed fiberglass resin into the molds which embedded the rebar completely into the resin. I ended up with multiple "bricks" of rebar that I could lift and place into the bilge without getting a hernia. I don't know how much ballast we added to the boat as we never weighed it.

It did help the angle of heel. We felt it cut about five to ten degrees off our angle of heel when sailing to windward in the trade winds.

It was an interesting experiment, and if it didn't work, I could always take the large "rebar bricks" back to the dump where I found them. We left them in the bilge. I would have preferred lead bricks, but I did not have the money. The rebar bricks only cost a few hacksaw blades and several gallons of fiberglass resin.
__________________

__________________
Dave -Sailing Vessel Exit Only

http://SailingUNI.com
http://maxingout.com
http://PositiveThinkingSailor.com
maxingout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 20:20   #17
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
.01 worth.

I basically went from 20 ft to 41'...I haven't knocked down the later yet..but a 30 degree heel round up is even a 10 second Lolly gag.....I just slowly brought my right foot up to push off the cockpit seat and adjusted my stance and road it out till she spilled her own wind and fell off again....The 20 would have had its spreaders in the water in 2 seconds..there probably would have been bruises...most definitely COB....

I'm with Nick...buy the biggest boat you can afford what ever style it is...Im addicted to the power of them...it will be hard to go back.
__________________

__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 07:47   #18
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
it's an interesting concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
I suspect that most cruisers would like to have a forgiving yacht. Most yachting discussion doesn't focus on how a yacht will behave when the skipper makes a mistake. It's not the kind of thing sales people are going to talk about. You buy the boat, get into a storm, and suddently you discover whether or not you have a forgiving yacht. I think having to go through a storm is a poor way to discover whether you have a forgiving yacht that is tolerant to the mistakes of the skipper and crew.
I certainly bought my most recent set of golf clubs because they were so highly forgiving. They are designed with perimeter weighting that doesn't require me to hit with the very center of the club every time. A good idea for someone who spends far more weekends sailing than golfing.

So what makes a boat more forgiving? I like having a high enough boom that it's not going to decapitate the crew in a crash gybe. And I insist on not having running backstays. I want an oversize rudder so that I don't round up just because I failed to foresee a puff. I want a sail plan that's easy to balance, and is still easy to reef if I've waited a moment to long to shorten sail.

But those are obvious elements of forgiveness in a yacht. What else might contribute to this quality?
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 08:26   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 19
I'm the newbie here. My wife and I just decided to circumnav and we'll slowly be moving up from our Mac 26' trailerable to a larger live aboard (probably a Hunter as they are prolific in north Texas for some reason) and then, hopefully, to a large boat that we actually move on to in the Gulf of Mexico and will eventually circumnavigate with. Mind you, this is at least a 5 year plan.

First, please let me say that I love the conversational temperature of this thread in that no one seems to be at anyone else's throat. I've already ran into a few of those threads and it generally makes me sick to my stomach.

Second, I am taking much of what is said in this thread as gospel in that I believe longer is better. I saw it moving from a Hobie 16 to a Hobie 20. I felt it moving from my Hobie to my Mac. I don't have nearly the experience as those who have posted before me....but I have the strong and clear impression that my wife and I need to look for the longest boat we can afford when the time comes.

It seems to me that the larger the boat, the less it responds to quick changes in the wind or seas. Something that dumped my Hobie 16 wouldn't dump a 20. Things that dumped the Hobie 20 would only cause my Mac to round up.

However, near anchorage, I anticipate more problems as it takes more time to slow or stop a larger boat. So, I think the smaller boat is more forgiving in shallower waters as well as in and around destinations and anchorages. Just think of the impact at a concrete or wooden dock. Think of running aground in waves or taking your eye off that bouey until it's too late. Larger boats just don't slow down or turn quickly. There is too much momentum and rudders become less and less useful at lower and lower speeds. Like an airoil, a rudder requires water moving over it in order to provide steerage. Thus, the slower you're moving (sliding into a slip or picking up a mooring), the less they work.

To stop a hobie, you need only release the lines, and running up on the beach is fine. To stop my Mac, I furl the genoa, stow the main, put my 9hp in full reverse and pray for a miracle. I can't tell you how many bruises I've received during eyes closed prayer while smacking my trailer at 2 knots (giggle).

Thus, I'm looking forward to spending a year or two up here at a North Texas lake on 30 feet of boat as most of my time will be spent near or at dock. But, I hope to double that before taking to the blue water. We will also likely change from the mono to a multi for the square footage. My wife and I will definitely apprecaite as much square footage as possible with 2 kiddos!
__________________
skeedaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 08:40   #20
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
welcome to the forum, skeedaddy. you'll find a large boat with an inboard diesel and a three-blade prop far easier to stop than your Mac. Outboards don't make for good brakes.

you make a valid point that small boats are more forgiving at close quarters.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 09:01   #21
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
TaoJones's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 9,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeedaddy View Post
First, please let me say that I love the conversational temperature of this thread in that no one seems to be at anyone else's throat. I've already ran into a few of those threads and it generally makes me sick to my stomach.
Welcome to the Forum, skeedaddy. We're glad you've come aboard.

I'm not sure if it's threads here at CF that have made you sick to your stomach, or some other website. If you read something that you find inappropriate in a post at CF, you can always report it.

In the lower left of all posts, there is a Report Post icon (white triangle, red border, black exclamation mark) that allows any logged-in member to report a problem post to the moderators. Once a post is brought to our attention, we investigate, discuss and deal with the problem, if we determine that there is, in fact, a problem. Since we can't possibly read every word of every post, alert members are vital to making this Forum a pleasant experience for everyone.

So, again, welcome to Cruisers Forum, skeedaddy. It may turn out that the posts here are so good at painting a picture of the sailing experience that you're just feeling a little seasick.

TaoJones
__________________
"Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens."
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
TaoJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 10:19   #22
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,965
I've found ALL boats to be far more forgiving than my wife.

A modern cat is certainly better than a under ballasted Westsail, but, for us, a modern bigger monohull has been even better.

The fairest comparison of cats and monohulls are equal cost boats. This means that a 40ft cruising cat should be compared to about a 50ft mono. Interestingly, this comparison also gives you similar accommodation space and speed (if the cat is loaded for cruising).

Cat designs have some built in advantages that I've found my wife appreciates:

Little heel. When we bought one of our first 50ft mono, the owner's wife was trying to describe how much she liked the stiffness of the boat under sail. They had recently done an Atlantic crossing. She turned to my wife and holding her hand straight up and down she said "This is a happy Cindy".... She then tilted her hand about 20 degrees.."This is an unhappy Cindy"..She tilted her hand 15 more degrees.."This is a Cindy off the boat". My wife does a pretty good Cindy imitation

A "dry" design with good wind/sun/spray protected seating in the cockpit. There must be something that makes guys want to stand on the quarter deck being lashed by spray in a howling gale. Women are smarter.

Predictable and comfortable motion. While I don't like a cat's motion, it is predictable. A puff doesn't cause a cat's rail to bury. You don't often hear "hold on!" or "watch out!" on a cat under sail.

It turns out that you can quite easily have ALL of the above cat adavantages in a monohull starting around 48 ft. You just have to buy the right boat.

-- Many modern mono designs are meant to be sailed quite flat - 10-15 degrees. You go faster and have a happier wife - a "win-win". My wife would never go back to life at 25 degrees.

- A hard dodger or even pilothouse with inside steering gets everyone out of the weather (how come those who worry about big windows on a pilothouse mono don't worry about the even bigger windows on a cat?)

- I find the motion of bigger mono (50ft - 40,000lb) to be more predictable and comfortable than a similar priced cat or a smaller monohull. Acceleration and deceleration takes awhile. There's no sudden tipping. No slamming. No bouncing. No crew being thrown around.

Carl

Here's a picture of a Cal 40 (nice boat). That might be the skipper's wife at the forward end of the cockpit. The one who is acting as a dodger. If she was my wife, she'd be saying "This is Cindy off the boat".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image001.jpg
Views:	401
Size:	68.4 KB
ID:	13007  
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 10:24   #23
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Smaller boats are more forgiving when you smack into something because you damage that something less than with a bigger boat. But I don't think your boat itself will have less damage. This all depends on build quality etc. but I mean when that quality is equal.
From an engineering standpoint, it is easier to make something big very strong than it is to make something small very strong.

About close quarters: My 64' Sundeer is much easier to handle in close quarters than the 30' vd Stad I sailed before. Reasons: maneuverability on the engine is much better, less impact from wind, can go slower, can turn on the spot using fwd/rev and propwalk even without a bow thruster (we don't have one). We can reverse into a dock in a straight line with a less than an inch precision, something that I can't imagine any 30 footer doing. At 55,000 pounds displacement fully loaded, there is no pushing off the dock so you need to learn different techniques. When we practiced those on a 30' boat (Jeanneau!) we discovered that we should have been using those techniques with the smaller boats too because they provide more control and are easier (we impressed many watching bystanders and they were really puzzled when they saw us come back and do it again and again ;-)
Techniques we use all the time now: the combination of spring-lines and engine to move the bow or stern sideways, putting the hull against wooden posts on purpose for "guidance" (using the solid aluminium rub-rail) and accepting that in some difficult situations, you will touch your neighbor so put the crew on deck with a big skippy-ball type fender to control that... and use that contact for keeping control over the rest of the boat again. Also, for longer boats, the midships cleat with a single breast-line to shore starts to work very good as long as the boat isn't too beamy.

I am positive that my 140hp Yanmar with 24" prop will stop us much quicker than a Mac26 with outboard. There's no comparison and you will be positively surprised with your new boat with inboard diesel!

All the good luck to you and your plans for the future, they sound solid to me and the cat sailing gives you all the important basis you need.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 10:48   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
the cat will be more forgiving, in fact you will have to keep watch on the anemometer and boat speed to even know how hard it's really blowing.....or suddenly without warning she will be upside down!
__________________
Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 11:07   #25
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
So far our 41 Irwin has been easier to dock then our twin screw Sea Ray..most of the time..it only gets dicey in a good blow....But the Sea Rays bow will blow off faster then the Irwin's ..yes you can counter rotate the Sea Ray but its still a lot more skittish then the Irwin..Your Mac or our Sea Ray doesn't have the advantage of a fixed keel...which adds tremendously the feeling of driving on a rail...

I to was quit pleasantly surprised with the maneuverability using prop walk and the breaking or accelerating power of the 64 hp Perking swinging 19"...no comparison to your outboard even for your size...I had no prior instruction docking 41' and was a bit nervous to be honest not having a bow thruster for fairway work..but my wife's first comment to me after my fist docking was WOW!........Im still her prince every once in a while..

Lots to learn yet I haven't tried any spring line techniques but Id like to learn them.
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 11:55   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Much of this discussion is simply personal preference. We don't notice the boat heeling and we like the soft ride that weight affords.

Regarding size: we find it is easier to sail a larger boat but they are much harder work to rig in the spring. Mrs Joli setting checks and runners.

__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 09:17   #27
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowshoes View Post
Dave,

How did you add ballast to your Westsail and how much was needed to make a difference ?
Click on the top URL below, Photos of a Westsail that took 125lbs. off his rig by eliminating wire. I am sure someone on this thread can calculate the gain in righting arm. Sounds like some of the wives would appreciate any efforts to keep the boat standing up
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 14:10   #28
S&S
Registered User
 
S&S's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Boat: 48' 1963 S&S yawl
Posts: 851
Images: 6


That's a good one Carl . On ours that angle is what we'd call "everyday sailing". Older skinny boats like ours usually sail at 25-35 degrees. That said, once we've come to our "operating angle" she pretty much stays there, and there are no really sudden changes in motion or attitude. Regarding cat or mono, if the weather were really bad, I'd feel safer on a larger mono.

And yes, the wife does not like it. But the kids (who know no different) don't have a problem with sailing on one's ear.
__________________
S&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 06:09   #29
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
I've found ALL boats to be far more forgiving than my wife.

.

Guess than means you get to sail more often then!
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 07:22   #30
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,198
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
There are so many different ways of looking at yachts.

For example, if you look at weight, my Westsail 32 and my Privilege 39 weighed approximately 20,000 pounds fully loaded. Very similar weights.

If you look at the weights/displacements of 30 footers, 40 footers, and 50 footers, they will all have different displacements and will be different in how forgiving they are of the mistakes made by their skippers.

One of the reasons I liked my catamaran for a circumnavigation was because it was so forgiving when I or my crew made a mistake or were not as diligent as we could have been in running our yacht. The autopilot steered the boat 99% of the time, and the cataramaran took good care of us when we made a mistake. It was a forgiving yacht.

It's different strokes for different folks when sailing offshore. Most cruising sailors want a forgiving yacht. It's not something that is frequently discussed in forums. Discussions often focus on speed and other aspects of performance. It's not very often that prospective cruisers focus on the question of whether a particular design will be a forgiving yacht when they make a mistake.

I suspect that most cruisers would like to have a forgiving yacht. Most yachting discussion doesn't focus on how a yacht will behave when the skipper makes a mistake. It's not the kind of thing sales people are going to talk about. You buy the boat, get into a storm, and suddently you discover whether or not you have a forgiving yacht. I think having to go through a storm is a poor way to discover whether you have a forgiving yacht that is tolerant to the mistakes of the skipper and crew.
Another reason is.... a Westsail 32 has a beam of what... 10ft..? and she travels 'THROUGH' the water and is more subject to the corkscrew effect of waves and also heel effect by wind... the second a necessary evil if you want forward progress...
A 39ft cruising cat on the other hand has a 20ft beam and sits on the water and has little wind induced heel, the raft like proportions also reduce the wave effect greatly compared to the Westsail giving you a more stable platform for living and working on...
I think this "Which is the most Forgiving" argument is a misnomer as both boats can be equally unforgiving if stupid judgements are made.. over canvass, beam on to seas, running downwind etc, which could result in gear failure, pitch-poling or capsize....
What we have here is someone who actually means his Catamaran is a more comfortable environment for HIS style of sailing....
I move quickly and freely round mono-hulls in most conditions without bruises but then I'm an 80kg, slim agile guy, even tho' I'm 61.... but I also appreciate that on a Cat, if I put a mug of coffee or soup on the table at sea its a lot less likely to end up in the bilges...
As someone has already stated.. horses for course's... if your a traditionalist you go Mono and revel in the motion.... if your priority is Comfort you go Multi.... both give the Adrenalin Boost...
Just different 'HITS'...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
multihull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monohull or Multihull Sailboat? Gisle Multihull Sailboats 546 09-03-2015 09:42
Cruising Multihull Suggestions Please sww914 Multihull Sailboats 34 23-05-2009 21:44
Monohull vs Multihull maxingout Multihull Sailboats 13 20-07-2008 08:57
Real cruising multihull speeds Woods Designs Multihull Sailboats 47 20-07-2008 04:47
from monohull to multihull bahamarich Multihull Sailboats 6 09-10-2007 20:42



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.