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Old 28-07-2009, 15:59   #46
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Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Maybe you got everyone thinking in the wrong direction by talking about a cruising "counter culture". The term "counter culture" brings up an image of drug-culture, anti-establishment, hippie drop-outs to some. I don't think that's what you meant at all.

If it's really just the second group in your description above that you're looking for, take heart, because they exist. We ran into them all the time in the anchorages of the Lesser Antilles. A lot of the enjoyment of cruising in the lesser developed areas is getting to know some of the locals, enjoying their foods and culture, and experiencing the local scene. Some cruisers we met took it further and seemed to really integrate in with the local society, through charitable activities and so forth. Heck, my wife and I liked it so much down here, we sold our home in the States and moved to a little 6 x 8 mile island three years ago.

We came across a few of the first group you described in our cruising, but not that many of them. Of course we didn't hang out in the mega-yacht marinas or the charter sailing vacation meccas, either, preferring to swing on the hook in the less "touristy" spots.
That's nice to hear!

Perhpas I should have used the term sub-culture, but it was early, and I was tired and a bit cranky after reading a multitude of posts by some dilettantes - my bad. Still, it was worth it to read some of the responses to this thread, if for the amusement factor alone. I guess I really struck a nerve.

To me the cruising "sub culture" started after WWII just as most did. Sure it had it's bohemian side and it's hippie side, but it wasn't just that. Then at least, to adopt that lifestyle typically meant rejecting another, more mainstream one. Therefore the people you would meet "out there" didn't tend to have too too much because, unless they were born into it, the personality that drove them out there was not conducive to doing what it would take to acquire that here. Sure there were exceptions, there always are, but again, it was a different vibe.
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:22   #47
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also from Heraclitus

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"You cannot step twice into the same river." Heraclitus (c.535 BC - c.475 BC)
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The path up and the path down is the same path.
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:43   #48
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Originally Posted by GordMay
You've presented yourself with a real Hobb's choice - I hope it's merely an illogical false dilemma.


I'm not familiar with a Hobb's choice, I'm sorry.

I am familiar with a Hobson's choice, but this doesn't apply here...
Good gravey, Gordo, you're really getting killed on vocabulary today eh? My wife is Hungarian and occassionally has that problem. Shortly after we first met she mistakenly used the word "constallation" when she clearly meant "constipation". With that I commented that I guessed she wasn't too great with etymology to wit she brightly responded that she wasn't as she'd never cared much for bugs (entomology!). Drives ya crazy, no?
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Old 28-07-2009, 17:25   #49
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Good gravey, Gordo, you're really getting killed on vocabulary today ... Drives ya crazy, no?
I started out crazy, have always been able to rely og the CF to pull me back from the brink.
Anthropo-whatever, Hob-Hobson ... what’s a poor illiterate proletarian to do.
I could just shut up, and leave the conversation to my betters, I suppose.
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Old 28-07-2009, 17:33   #50
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Many things have changed for the worse since I started cruising in the 70's
I think many of your points miss a serious issue. I don't think people that go now are "less committed". It's an assessment that does not have the data behind it. Being young and naive is still the same. People in the 70's were in no way better, no way smarter and maybe less educated.

I think the idea that the surge is related to technological improvements is also wrong. Some times it really is all about the money. There is more in it and more available for it. Many of the new cruisers are - new.

Because you can cite examples also means there is more communications and data available now than there was then. You can know more in more detail about what is now than you could ever have known back then. The ability to extrapolate to now from back then is mostly guess work especially if the conclusion precedes the research.

The technological and financial advantages to some people change the details but not the fundamentals. People have not devolved or become worse. I don't think you can get anyone younger to accept that idea. I'm sure younger members will jump up and admit they are less than previous generations. I can't say that they should take it either. Sort of a giant insult actually. Being 55 now I can say I was there in those times. The good old days were not all they have been cracked up to be. I'm not what I used to be either. The good times do stand out more than the bad times. I've had enough of both to know it.

As I see it there has never been another time in history better than now. Anyone that can't see it that way is wasting their time and should stay home. The sky could be falling and the glass could be half empty.
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:21   #51
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I don't think people that go now are "less committed".

I think the idea that the surge is related to technological improvements is also wrong.
The reason I say they are less committed (on average) is because back then it was not possible to cruise "part time". It was not possible to "e-commute". You quit your job, went sailing, and dealt with employment when you ran out of money. Today there are more who keep their primary employment while cruising -- it changes your attitude when that happens. Your attitude to costs, maintenance, rescue, insurance.
I get what DP is on about, many popular cruiser hangouts are not a lot different from middle class suburbia.

Do you really think there wouldn't be fewer out there if GPS didn't exist?




Want proof? Check some of the threads on this forum. How much fuel do I need to cross the Pacific? What marina should I stay at when I get there? I motor if speed drops below 4.5 kn. Why won't my wireless modem work?
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:03   #52
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It was not possible to "e-commute". You quit your job, went sailing, and dealt with employment when you ran out of money.
You seem to think it's possible to do now for any one. Many want to think so but few actually can do it. It's a popular topic here on CF. Yes, some can but not even close to most people. Most jobs require you to show up once in a while. Those that don't have to are fooling themselves into thinking they still matter. Personally, I'm leaving and am not taking phone calls. You can cut a sabbatical once in a while if you are lucky and if possible folks would also be darn fools not to. Because it didn't used to be possible is not less committed now. That's not new.

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Do you really think there wouldn't be fewer out there if GPS didn't exist?
No fewer than if there were no fiberglass in the 1970's. Technology made cruising in the 1960's even possible for all but the idle very rich. GPS is new but it's not navigation. Sailors have always used the best of the best for navigation. They would be fools if they didn't. Looking back it's all too easy to say how hard it was and how now you know more. In that light, could you say you wouldn't go now because it is easier? That you would go now but you would require one hand tied behind your back to prove you were more committed?

There are always new obstacles to deal with and the basic problem of not knowing as much as is possible to know now is a real problem. You could know more now yet not know it. Back then you couldn't have known more and knew even less. Is one superior to the other?

At the root is the desire for adventure. It requires only hope and the removal of excuses and the skills to get there and come back. Having too much skill is not a disadvantage no matter how you get it. It is called preparation at it's best. Not being prepared has it's own liabilities waiting at ones peril. The young sailor may know but the old salt knows why. Experience has always been at a premium and earns it's respect. Nothing is different in 30 years or 100 years. The sea remains level now as it was then.
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:22   #53
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I came back started a business which I've been running almost by accident and dealing with people who I have loathed for twenty years. But I had some family obligations that I had to attend to.

It sure seems a shame to spend twenty years of ones life with people you loath. I too own a business and am fortunate to enjoy the employees and customers who provide me a living.

Now in reading these boards and others I find the yuppies have taken to the sea... I know they've always been there a bit, but not like it appears today.

Do yuppies wear Patagonia? If so, I think I'm one. I kind of like being successful, having enough cheese to live well on. No regrets on my part.

Am I wrong? Can one still get away and find adventure or must a new cruising ground be pursued? Are there really any left? The questions are sort of rhetorical, but not entirely...

What, you've spent twenty years being a accidental entrepreneur and haven't found enough time to check this out for yourself? Why not take some time off and charter a boat? Even my inexperienced yuppie sailing family finds the time to do that once a year.

I wish I had been born to a time of wooden ships and no electronic navigation...

Nothing is stopping you from buying a wooden ship with no electronics. I of course want two fridges, a washer/dryer, super tender, electric windlass, and so much more.
I just don't get it
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:17   #54
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I just don't get it
I don't expect you to, but thanks for the adivce. As I'm sure you can tell, it means a lot.
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:21   #55
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"You cannot step twice into the same river." Heraclitus (c.535 BC - c.475 BC)

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But apparently you can piss into the same wind twice. Lots of times actually!
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Old 29-07-2009, 03:14   #56
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I think the idea that the surge is related to technological improvements is also wrong. Some times it really is all about the money.
.
Pblais, I think you may find the surge is totally related to technology. One no longer needs to know much about nav or sailing with the advent of gps and reliable motors.Try listening to one of the HF cruiser nets and you will be amazed at what constitutes an on-board disaster these days. They generally have something to do with the flow of electrons or rather the lack there of.


Cruising can still be accomplished very cheaply. Those new to sailing may be excused for thinking that sailboat necessities include large motors, vast quantities of fuel, and electronics ,after surfing some of the sailing forums for information.

regards.
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Old 29-07-2009, 04:00   #57
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One groups counter-culture is the other groups-counter culture.

Matty seems to have migrated from one group to another as have I and many other posters on this thread.

I am still trying to get a bead on the counter-culture or subgroup we are talking about.

If it's the "I have no money, a simple boat with no electronics and still manage to cruise around the world" that group still exists.

There are all kinds of different profiles of people day sailing, coastal cruising, weekend cruising and world traveling.

Hats off to all of them.

I personally don't view the surfer crowd that has a bag full of laptops, iPhones and gps units as anywhere equivalent to the "counter culture" of the 60's.

I would surmise that the 60's counter culture existed in a time, place, social setting and technology window that doesn't exist anymore and therefore cannot be repeated or duplicated.

It would be very frustrating to go in search of that.

Peter Pan grew up and now works on wall street...
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Old 29-07-2009, 05:03   #58
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Yuppies, and the exclusive set are visible from the horizon. We have here an individual who questions the sanctity of cruising
Cruising is individual and we are as different and individual as anyone, whatever their lifestyle.
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Old 29-07-2009, 06:34   #59
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Peter Pan grew up and now works on wall street...
Not anymore...
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Old 29-07-2009, 06:37   #60
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We have here an individual who questions the sanctity of cruising
No, you don't... But thank's for playing.
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