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Old 30-10-2012, 15:53   #151
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

A great discussion with a lot of knowledge and if no one minds l'd like to add a few novice perceptions. You are welcome to tell me I simply don't know what i'm talking about. - but i'm here to learn so it's not a problem.

for the sake of context, here's a brief summary of experience:
a day dancing around in the Atlantic w/ 35 - 40 and 6 - 8 swells
a squall with 70kt sustained winds for an hour or so.
lots of days w/ 6-8 foot seas and moderate wind.
admittingly nothing that looks even close to a gale. (thank god!)

the statement which really got my attention is this: "the boat will tend to stay bow to the WIND".
This statement seems to need some qualification or it is difficult to apply. My own experience is under bare poles when it's blowing, the boat will naturally tend to fall off and run stern to wind. Even with some sail up - this is not for sure in my mind.

First problem I see: this statement doesn't account for sea state.
With any sail up, yes she will want to naturally stay pointed, assuming all is balanced (more like tip toeing to my mind). I think this may be a big assumption since even a small wave can knock you off this point of balance for a few seconds, and those few seconds can turn into an infinite hell to correct a course in a blow (limited experience: but definitely some).

Another series of comments which made sense had to do with hanging a drogue off the bow. Really no different in dynamics then hanging from a mooring in a blow, with the exception that you are not tied to the bottom. Again the issue seems to be sea state. In big rollers, I can imagine this strategy. In breakers or steep swells....... say beyond 30 degrees from horizontal, well... i'd be concerned.

Point of confusion:
so say i'm bow to the wind and waves with a drogue hanging off the bow.
a steep roller comes along and knocks the whole kit and kaboodle off from being pointed. In my mind, the next wave is going to take me broadside and that is where the game is over.???

Unless i'm mistaken, no one has yet mentioned being Hove To.
and i'm thinking there is the possible combination of tactics to keep the boat safe. Granted this adds to the difficulty of a likely already fatigued crew....but hey were on a blog...
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Old 31-10-2012, 02:10   #152
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

Smarch,

I believe someone did mention heaving to as a storm tactic. It certainly is the tactic of choice. One of the issues with it is is it the final tactic? Or is it a tactic to be used along the way? Don't forget, if you are hove to, then getting under way and deploying a drogue or a sea anchor is perhaps a bit entertaining.

But should certainly be used - and should be practiced (by the way sustained 70+knts winds DO class as a gale). Gale force winds start at around 45 knots. 70 knts is heavy storm and getting into something that might be called hurricane (if it continues).

Andrew I hadn't heard of the"Black Box" theory, but can easily agree with it. I seem to remember a quote (can't remember who) "Fortune favors the well-prepared" or something to that effect.

Sailors and aviators have a lot in common. Aviators have a saying "any landing you can walk away from is great landing". A lot of truth to that. Back in the 90's there was an SAS jet that took off from Arlanda in Stockholm. I believe the flaps somehow immediately iced up and the jet started down. The pilot, STefan Rasmussen, managed to find an open field and drop the bird right into it. everyone survived, although a number were injured. He quit piloting, saying, "Pilots only have a fixed amount of luck. A landing like that used my entire supply."

So I guess he believed in a modified Black Box theory. It's there, but you can't refill it.
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Old 31-10-2012, 08:43   #153
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smaarch View Post
...
Point of confusion:
so say i'm bow to the wind and waves with a drogue hanging off the bow.
a steep roller comes along and knocks the whole kit and kaboodle off from being pointed. In my mind, the next wave is going to take me broadside and that is where the game is over.???

...
There is a missing ratio in what regards sailboats and one that will be relevant to that situation, one that gives an idea of how much time the boat will take to re-right itself and if he can do it (or not) before the next breaker and that, off course, is very important.

It is common knowledge that the area under a righting moment curve gives the energy it is needed for a boat to be capsized but that tells only part of the story.

The RM curve is obtained multiplying the values of a GZ curve (Length of the arm) by the boat mass. This will make for heavy boats to have a big RM curve if compared with lighter boats that normally have a better GZ. However that better GZ will not be sufficient to compensate the two or three times more mass of an heavy boat with the same length.

But it is generally not taken into account that if a boat has a big righting moment weighting 3 times more than another one will need also 3 times more force to be righted and that's the point I am talking about.

RM curves tells only half of the story because in what regards dynamic stability the time a boat take to recover from a knock down (not to be caught laying down by the next breaker) is a fundamental factor and about this the RM curve gives no information.

A GZ curve will give a more intuitive approach but does not tell the whole story. It will not take in consideration the advantages a big displacement has in what regards static stability and the superior force needed to knock it down.

I guess someone has to create a compensated new ratio that can give us a better idea of a boat stability in bad weather one that takes also in consideration the dissipation of force a light beamy boat has in what regards sliding under the impact of a wave and avoid to transform the full wave force of impact in a rolling movement.

Please don't take into account the capsize ratio or D/B ratios. Those are very crude and inefficient tools when compared wit GZ and RM curves that give very precise information about a given boat. I am looking forward, not backwards
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Old 16-02-2013, 14:15   #154
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

For a singlehander or two expeienced guys or a couple I think a Pacific Seacraft Flicka would be the smallest. They are a well designed boat with a design history going back to the 1850s and sound modern construction by PSC. They have a very good track record.

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Old 17-02-2013, 18:46   #155
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

I think I would die of boredom aboard a Flicka. But they are easy to sheet to tiller steer.
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Old 17-02-2013, 19:11   #156
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

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I think I would die of boredom aboard a Flicka. But they are easy to sheet to tiller steer.
Why would you die of boredom?
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Old 17-02-2013, 19:55   #157
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Probably because they are so slow.
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Old 17-02-2013, 20:25   #158
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

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Why would you die of boredom?
Not enough boat projects to stay busy?
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Old 18-02-2013, 01:14   #159
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

Come and help me with my projects
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Old 21-02-2013, 12:00   #160
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

For a quick run lasting not more than a few days I would say a PSC 34 would be the smallest. For staying out extended periods then a PSC 37 would be it.
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Old 28-03-2013, 14:39   #161
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

I sailed a 1990 PSC Flicka from Vancouver Canada to Hilo Hawaii last July/Aug. First few weeks averaged 120 miles in 24 hours. Hit doldrums and moved 50 knots in ten days. Total trip 44 days. Solo that's a lot of alone time. Given you can get bored on any boat doesn't take away from Flicka's abilities, she was great. Food and water replenished I pulled anchor 9 days later and sailed her to San Diego (28 days). Had it been earlier in season would have went to Tahiti instead. Great boat that can do it, and as a first ocean passage so glad I opted for an affordable, manageable boat rather than always be dreaming about going.
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Old 28-03-2013, 15:34   #162
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

Sounds like a nice trip going through the Pacific a couple times. I've always heard the Flicka is built well enough for anything that can be thrown at it.
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Old 28-03-2013, 16:44   #163
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?


I've always wanted to go offshore in one of those mini 12. Atlantic wouldn't be realistic but a nice gulf crossing would be fun. ( says the girl comfy safe and dry)
My Pacific seacraft 25 was a sweet sailor and I'd take her anywhere. As far as safety offshore, I have felt just as safe in a well founded small boat as I have in a large boat, smallest being 27 and largest being 52ft. If i were to prioritize: the sailing ability is number one, strength, then size. I've seen 70 knots in a lousy sailing boat, luckily she was built like a tank.
Nice thing about bigger boats is they can cover more miles, but the flip side is when they break, fixing can be a bigger task.
Nice thing about small boats is they are easier to handle, less to break, cheaper to repair.
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Old 28-03-2013, 16:59   #164
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For a quick run lasting not more than a few days I would say a PSC 34 would be the smallest. For staying out extended periods then a PSC 37 would be it.
That makes no sense. You wouldn't go out in a crealock 34, a world cruiser, for more than a few days but would take her slightly larger sistership???
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Old 28-03-2013, 19:08   #165
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Re: What is the Smallest Boat That You Would Sail Outside of Coastal Waters?

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That makes no sense. You wouldn't go out in a crealock 34, a world cruiser, for more than a few days but would take her slightly larger sistership???
Different strokes for different folks
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