Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-06-2015, 14:56   #376
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I would say that if I had to choose, the defining part of the regulation is "at all times."

In your example above you forgot to mention the smallish wooden boat in the trough of a wave with a hardly noticeable radar return between you and the big ship. He won't be visible until you're within about 5 miles from each other. So, you avoided the big ship with AIS but you plowed into the little guy that was still too far away for you to see when you "thought" you had made a full appraisal and began your 30 minute nap. Sometimes "full appraisals" aren't, and that's probably why the colreg says "at all times" and doesn't say "every 30 minutes." Seriously if you've EVER been to sea, you have to be aware of just how much can change in 30 minutes.
Were the blokes in the small wooden boat maintaining watch? Why didn't they attempt to avoids a collision?anyway what were they doing so far out to sea?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 14:57   #377
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,063
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
First, what I react strongly to is one person wishing to impose his view of the world on another. Banning solo sailing would be a loss of freedom, something Americans seem to be in a rush to do lately. Whether it is single-handing, or abortion, smoking pot (legal next month here), not wearing helmets on motorcycles (and bicycles), walking dogs in public festivals (ya gotta love the new immigrants from CA "cleaning up" the country folk), fireworks (it better not go "bang"!), HOAs enforcing the board's ideas of what a yard should look like, it has become the new normal to arbitrarily ban other people's activities. Land of the free - not!

Secondly, the argument is purely a legalistic one, and brings to mind Shakespeare's call to kill all the lawyers. In all of my years of sailing/cruising I have never heard of anyone else losing their lives, being injured, losing their vessel, or even having damage as a result of a single-hander not being on watch. In other words, it is a non-problem that is not looking for a solution. OTOH I have known of multiple instance of boats (solo and crewed) run down by commercial ships - that really is a scary problem. In the last few years we have seen new CF members buy boats, apparently for the first time, and sail off without adequate preparation or experience only to come to a bad end - that is a real problem that we as a forum should be doing more about discouraging - but I am not calling for banning novices or requiring licensing.

I appreciate that those who haven't acquired years of experience need to fall back on theory, rely on the rules until they get a feel for the way things work. But the goal is not to win an argument in a Coast Guard Court of Enquiry after an accident, it is to take practical steps to avoid accidents. Banning solo operation does nothing to reduce the real world risks of cruising, and there are a lot of risks out there. Solo sailors represent a risk to themselves - that is their decision to make - but not to others.

Put away the law books and go cruising - the reality is a lot more relaxed.

Greg
I need to agree with you. Hadn't heard of a single hander sinking anyone. Maybe I missed something and one sunk a container ship. Single handing but riding a motorcycle? I fail the see the parallel. Maybe so, I might win a tie with a semi on my motorcycle
__________________

__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:00   #378
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I would say that if I had to choose, the defining part of the regulation is "at all times."

In your example above you forgot to mention the smallish wooden boat in the trough of a wave with a hardly noticeable radar return between you and the big ship. He won't be visible until you're within about 5 miles from each other. So, you avoided the big ship with AIS but you plowed into the little guy that was still too far away for you to see when you "thought" you had made a full appraisal and began your 30 minute nap. Sometimes "full appraisals" aren't, and that's probably why the colreg says "at all times" and doesn't say "every 30 minutes." Seriously if you've EVER been to sea, you have to be aware of just how much can change in 30 minutes.
You are struggling to maintain credibility in your argumentation. Let me aboard your vessel and I will cite you infractions of breaking the letter of the regulation many times.

Your own examples show the same negligence as you are imposing on solo sailors theoretically. The regulation leaves the assessment of risk potential to the individual. How many times have you taken a look and then gone down to make coffee and been distracted for 15 minutes? You did that based on your risk assessment.

Next time you take a sleep and the person you left on watch has got engrossed in a book- it happens and they only look up every 30 minutes or so, what is the difference in failing to fulfil the definition of the law that you cling to, and not the entire spirit of the regulation for safe sailing

This is a circular argument. You dont think its safe to solo and many disagree with you. I happen to think its 'safer' with more than one person on board, but its not intrinsically unsafe with a trained sailor who is alone.

And yes, I have been to sea. Thanks for asking. It is generally cold and wet and full of fish, and I quite like it.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:06   #379
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 995
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
jtsailjt-

Please provide examples of collisions by single-handers not on watch [where the other boat was damaged/lives lost, etc].

Greg
You can google singlehanders collisions as well as I can if you're curious about it.

Whether or not there was loss of life in each case isn't really the relevant question, but rather would serious injury or loss of life be likely if that singlehander had collided with you while you were temporarily distracted by something else aboard your boat? Most collisions at sea involving recreational vessels like ours don't result in loss of life simply because most of the things out there to collide with are much bigger than our boats and are made of steel or rock or coral. But our boats aren't quite so bulletproof so we depend more on EVERYONE following the colregs to avoid collisions that might barely scratch a supertanker but would sink us. Are you really implying that ALL the rules of the road shouldn't apply to us, because we are unlikely to kill anyone aboard larger vessels we collide with?
__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:26   #380
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
Nope, I'm a 2AM jaywalker from way back, but if I'm still up that late and jaywalking it's probably because I'm drunk so there's my excuse. You see, when I choose to do that, any danger posed is entirely to me and to no-one else. I only do it when I feel it is safe to do so and if someday I miscalculate, it will be MY broken and dead body that goes flying into the ditch and the other person involved will only have wash the blood off his bumper and call his insurance company to get the dent fixed. When you ignore the requirement to at all times keep a proper watch at sea, you endanger others in your area as much as you endanger yourself.
Do you get drunk often? I'm trying hard to understand your persistence and convoluted statements in this discussion.

Could it be...?
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:28   #381
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 995
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Were the blokes in the small wooden boat maintaining watch? Why didn't they attempt to avoids a collision?anyway what were they doing so far out to sea?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
They were doing their best to keep a good watch but had their hands full with something unusual going on aboard their vessel, or maybe they were feeling ill and had their head hanging over the side. They would like to have a much larger vessel like yours, equipped with all the bells and whistles, but their budget only allowed for a smallish, wooden one with the bare essentials, much like the Pardy's old boat only less beautifully constructed. Are you suggesting that you only have to keep an adequate lookout to see large, well equipped vessels so you can take 30 minute naps where during that time you are oblivious to smaller vessels that can only be seen when you are much closer to them?
__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:28   #382
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,815
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
You can google singlehanders collisions as well as I can if you're curious about it.

Whether or not there was loss of life in each case isn't really the relevant question, but rather would serious injury or loss of life be likely if that singlehander had collided with you while you were temporarily distracted by something else aboard your boat?
I think what CarinaPDX was asking was is there a problem with single handers running into other recreational boats.

Based on a google search, other then a few boats racing coming in contact with ships at sea, I can't find a single news item of a single hander crusing hitting another cruising boat. So it seems its not really a problem at all. Crewed racing boats hitting other crewed racing boats is a different as there are lots of those. But Cruisers seem to be mostly lacking in collisions

Mind you that ships don't take action to avoid collisions with sailboats, shows how well ships maintain lookouts. In the ocean it's a boring job and everyone is lax.

So based on a google search, not extensive mind you, it does not seem to happen much if at all.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:41   #383
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,317
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

You know what I've learned on this thread? It's that posters about singlehanding have typing stamina!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:43   #384
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 995
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
Do you get drunk often? I'm trying hard to understand your persistence and convoluted statements in this discussion.

Could it be...?
When you quoted me, you seem to have somehow missed the "wink" after the drunken jaywalking statement. FYI, on the Internet and elsewhere, a "wink" usually but not always means that the poster isn't really serious about the statement preceeding the wink so you should probably learn to take posts with a wink after them with a large grain of salt. Oops, there I go, undoubtedly confusing you once again. Too take something with a large grain of salt you don't have to actually go find a large grain of salt and eat it, just understand that what has been said was in good part said in jest so shouldn't be taken literally. There, I hope you've got the knack of it by now.

Also, you keep making posts that end in waving white flags which usually denote surrender, but yet you keep on posting/fighting. Is this a weak attempt at trickery or are you unaware of what a white flag is for or can't you make up your mind whether you really want to surrender or not, or is there some other explanation entirely such as maybe you interpret the waving white flag as somebody washing their windows with a white rag and you happen to own a window washing company? As for persistence, you seem to be equally persistent in putting forward YOUR convoluted statements....just sayin. Your turn...
__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:50   #385
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
They were doing their best to keep a good watch but had their hands full with something unusual going on aboard their vessel, or maybe they were feeling ill and had their head hanging over the side. They would like to have a much larger vessel like yours, equipped with all the bells and whistles, but their budget only allowed for a smallish, wooden one with the bare essentials, much like the Pardy's old boat only less beautifully constructed. Are you suggesting that you only have to keep an adequate lookout to see large, well equipped vessels so you can take 30 minute naps where during that time you are oblivious to smaller vessels that can only be seen when you are much closer to them?
OK......... you have wandered off.......

On the basis that single handed sailing is legal, I would suggest that my brief synopsis of the rule takes precedence over your interpretation.

There is no more to say. I will do my best to maintain the Colregs when Im single handed, and be grateful for the quiet.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:53   #386
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
You know what I've learned on this thread? It's that posters about singlehanding have typing stamina!
Stamina is an indespensible attribute when you sail alone. Sometimes too, when you are communicating with potentially drunk sailors...

My guess is this thread is soon to be tossed in the dustbin... The downward spiral has begun.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:55   #387
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
First, what I react strongly to is one person wishing to impose his view of the world on another. Banning solo sailing would be a loss of freedom, something Americans seem to be in a rush to do lately. Whether it is single-handing, or abortion, smoking pot (legal next month here), not wearing helmets on motorcycles (and bicycles), walking dogs in public festivals (ya gotta love the new immigrants from CA "cleaning up" the country folk), fireworks (it better not go "bang"!), HOAs enforcing the board's ideas of what a yard should look like, it has become the new normal to arbitrarily ban other people's activities. Land of the free - not!

Secondly, the argument is purely a legalistic one, and brings to mind Shakespeare's call to kill all the lawyers. In all of my years of sailing/cruising I have never heard of anyone else losing their lives, being injured, losing their vessel, or even having damage as a result of a single-hander not being on watch. In other words, it is a non-problem that is not looking for a solution. OTOH I have known of multiple instance of boats (solo and crewed) run down by commercial ships - that really is a scary problem. In the last few years we have seen new CF members buy boats, apparently for the first time, and sail off without adequate preparation or experience only to come to a bad end - that is a real problem that we as a forum should be doing more about discouraging - but I am not calling for banning novices or requiring licensing.

I appreciate that those who haven't acquired years of experience need to fall back on theory, rely on the rules until they get a feel for the way things work. But the goal is not to win an argument in a Coast Guard Court of Enquiry after an accident, it is to take practical steps to avoid accidents. Banning solo operation does nothing to reduce the real world risks of cruising, and there are a lot of risks out there. Solo sailors represent a risk to themselves - that is their decision to make - but not to others.

Put away the law books and go cruising - the reality is a lot more relaxed.

Greg
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this whole 'single handed are dangerous' argument. When it comes down to it, it's a damn big ocean and you rarely hear, if ever, of a single handed sailor causing an accident. You occasionally hear of them running aground (like that hasn't happened to everyone), and very occasionally hear of one that needs rescuing (very occasionally compared to all the rescues), but the bottom line is, it's a non event.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 15:59   #388
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
When you quoted me, you seem to have somehow missed the "wink" after the drunken jaywalking statement. FYI, on the Internet and elsewhere, a "wink" usually but not always means that the poster isn't really serious about the statement preceeding the wink so you should probably learn to take posts with a wink after them with a large grain of salt. Oops, there I go, undoubtedly confusing you once again. Too take something with a large grain of salt you don't have to actually go find a large grain of salt and eat it, just understand that what has been said was in good part said in jest so shouldn't be taken literally. There, I hope you've got the knack of it by now.

Also, you keep making posts that end in waving white flags which usually denote surrender, but yet you keep on posting/fighting. Is this a weak attempt at trickery or are you unaware of what a white flag is for or can't you make up your mind whether you really want to surrender or not, or is there some other explanation entirely such as maybe you interpret the waving white flag as somebody washing their windows with a white rag and you happen to own a window washing company? As for persistence, you seem to be equally persistent in putting forward YOUR convoluted statements....just sayin. Your turn...
Yeah. I give up. Happy to let you believe you've actually won something. Exactly what is anyone's guess.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 16:00   #389
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
OK......... you have wandered off.......

On the basis that single handed sailing is legal, I would suggest that my brief synopsis of the rule takes precedence over your interpretation.

There is no more to say. I will do my best to maintain the Colregs when Im single handed, and be grateful for the quiet.
yep, let's remember everyone that unless some nation specifically has a law that prohibits single handed sailing / being alone on a sail boat, then it's not 'unlawful'. No matter what your interpretation of the Colreg's you can't be breaking a specific law, if no specific law exists. And as I requested a long way back, no one has been able to suggest any nation that has such a law, anywhere.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 16:02   #390
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: What Is The Big Deal About Single Handling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I would say that if I had to choose, the defining part of the regulation is "at all times."

In your exampland you forgot to mention the smallish wooden boat in the trough of a wave with a hardly noticeable radar return between you and the big ship. He won't be visible on radar until you're within about 5 miles from each other and you won't see him visually until within half a mile in rough seas. So, you avoided the big ship with AIS but you plowed into the little guy that was still too far away for you to see when you "thought" you had made a full appraisal and began your 30 minute nap. Sometimes "full appraisals" aren't, and that's probably why the colreg says "at all times" and doesn't say "every 30 minutes." Seriously if you've EVER been to sea, you have to be aware of just how much can change in 30 minutes.
Since 1964 I have never run into another boat..
However I have been T-boned in perfect visibility twice in that time.. Once underway and once while anchored.. both were crewed 4+ aboard the boats and calm seas.. both motor sailing.
Methinks the dangers are more from the likes of you guys so easily distracted
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
single

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ease of single handling Outremer 42 leont Multihull Sailboats 1 12-02-2015 14:25
General Info: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat peteh007 Fountaine Pajot 30 13-06-2014 11:00
Single Head Stay Sail Handling unbusted67 Seamanship & Boat Handling 7 30-01-2013 17:37
Single Handling a cat ... eliems General Sailing Forum 31 29-03-2012 18:37
Best book on converting a boat for single handling? BobMeans Monohull Sailboats 14 12-12-2007 12:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.