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Old 09-04-2010, 11:53   #31
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I don't think Dave was making the point about NOT sailing the boat to its potential in good, calm conditions like a river, but rather slowing the boat down when the conditions become uncomfortable at full speed.

Everyone enjoys pushing their boats in calm seas, good wind, sunny days. But picture your boat under full sail in 20kts of wind beating into 5' steep chop ninety degree direction to 12' ground swells. This describes a lot of passage making when slowing the boat down is desirable and most boats your size will not find 8kts of speed in these conditions both doable and comfortable. In fact, yours is a common boat and I have seen many of them in these conditions. They were not enjoying a full speed sail and had slowed their boats down to conform to the conditions. But comfort is a personal thing.

Mark
What you are refering to is exactally what I ran into the last time down the coast.. with the swells comming in from behind north west and we hit the "Santa Annas comming off the coast at about 20 to 25 knots.. If we would of stayed on that course, we would have been hammered, BUT a few degrees off and now the winds and wind waves are comming off our quarter and the swells are from the other quarter.. The speed picked up and the 25 knot winds were reduced to around 15.. running of the side of the swells and down wind..
It wasnt where we wanted to go, but it sure was a nice ride.. within a 100 miles the winds changed and we went back on course..
The trick is to asses every condition and pick the safest and most calm, for you and the boat.. sure we had to go a hundred miles out of the way, but we didnt beat ourselves or the boat to death..
I'm not saying I've never been caught in crap, but I am saying that I would have been subjected to more crap if I didnt have the ability and speed to get out of the way..
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Old 09-04-2010, 12:34   #32
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I just can't resist poking Nick, who is a real asset to the forum...

But his pokey heavy Sundeer 64 ketch might have trouble against this trim Santa Cruz 50 presently cruising in the breeze-starved S China Sea.
Ah, I though a Santa Cruz 50 was a mono hull ?! so I learn again today ;-) Yes, in light conditions a trimaran will do better because we can only try to go as fast as the wind blows while a tri can go faster than the wind. A just launched Sundeer (empty) did beat wind speed once on a reach though so I could try to dump all we have overboard ;-)

ciao!
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Old 09-04-2010, 13:00   #33
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Ah, I though a Santa Cruz 50 was a mono hull ?! so I learn again today ;-)
Sorry. I must have confused you somewhere back there. An SC50 is a monohull. The famous one.
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Old 09-04-2010, 21:36   #34
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Sorry. I must have confused you somewhere back there. An SC50 is a monohull. The famous one.
Ah, okay, thought you meant trimaran with "trim". Well, the Merlin is very much like the Sundeer and the SC50 is the 50' version of the Merlin, right? All these designs are very much alike, cored above and under water, fin keels and spade rudders, good beam to length ratios.
The SD64 hull will be a bit stiffer as the result of the SCRIMP process and choice of vinylester instead of polyester, but the SC50's are basically racers, not cruisers so a lot of luxury gear is left out making it much lighter.

The big problem for the SC50 is it's waterline which, at 46.5' is not really gonna be a match for the 64' waterline of a SD64. The keel is much deeper though. I would say that if there isn't enough wind for the SC50 to start planing first and we're not hard on the wind, she'll be trying to hang on to the stern of a SD64. Beating upwind the lesser weight and deeper keel will probably make up for the smaller hull. The weight advantage will have the SC50 plane well before the SD64 and even when both plane, the SD64 is more than twice the weight and both designs clocked similar speeds (24-26 knots). The advantage of waterline length dissipates quickly when planing.

But, when the SD64 would rent a 20' container and put all the luxuries in it to make it more or less the same class, it'll be clear that a 50 footer shouldn't mess with a 64 footer ;-)

I would love to see Merlin vs original Sundeer, both in race configuration, because I think they are a good match.

ciao!
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Old 09-04-2010, 22:48   #35
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But, when the SD64 would rent a 20' container and put all the luxuries in it to make it more or less the same class, it'll be clear that a 50 footer shouldn't mess with a 64 footer ;-)
Heh! I wrote 'S/V Jedi' not 'SD64' :-) That means I'll easily pass you when I find you. And I'm not missing any cruising comforts. I'm well over weight.

What I was getting at is your claim that you average 8 knots while 'cruising'. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. It's an unrealistic datapoint either way. Back when boats like mine, and comparable to yours were doing the BOC around the world race the winners averaged 8 knots. The SC50 7 knots. That's racing, largely in the roaring southern ocean, not dwaddling across the Pacific in cruising mode.

If I average my fast days, and there's been a few, and conveniently forget about the windless ones, the upwind ones, then yes, 8 knots is easy. But 4 is a more realistic average for even a fast cruising boat.

I'm in the S China Sea now. Probably circling around to the Marquesas to do another lap. Maybe you'll be there and we can have a race, as sailed. Should be a hoot watching a 4 knot boat pass an 8 knot boat.

Merlin vs. a Sundeer ketch? Are you kidding?
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Old 10-04-2010, 00:54   #36
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Daddle: I don't understand all these 4 and 8 knots stories. I have a DVD of an Atlantic crossing (Newport RI to Horta Azores) of SD64 Artemis and they average 260nm per 24hrs on that trip. That's close to 11 knots. Beowulf averages 300nm days with some 340nm days thrown in for fun on Pacific passages... that's 12.5 knots. Waterline is hard to beat...

cheers,
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Old 10-04-2010, 21:03   #37
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Daddle: I don't understand all these 4 and 8 knots stories. I have a DVD of an Atlantic crossing...
Yes, yes, yes. On any one lucky trip maybe. Not an average over cruises.

BTW, when Merlin (68 feet) set the Transpac record that stood for 20 years she averaged around 11 knots. Amazing that in all those years of fully-crewed turbo sleds surfing all night trying to do better on that Pacific crossing they never though of using a short-handed cruise-bloated Sundeer 64.

Like I said "Maybe you do, maybe you don't". The readers can decide.
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Old 11-04-2010, 00:16   #38
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Yes, yes, yes. On any one lucky trip maybe. Not an average over cruises.

BTW, when Merlin (68 feet) set the Transpac record that stood for 20 years she averaged around 11 knots. Amazing that in all those years of fully-crewed turbo sleds surfing all night trying to do better on that Pacific crossing they never though of using a short-handed cruise-bloated Sundeer 64.

Like I said "Maybe you do, maybe you don't". The readers can decide.
I was not comparing a SD64 with Merlin... I was comparing original Sundeer with her. Nobody could take one to try to beat that record because there's only one and she's not available for racing.

The SD64's don't do well in racing because Artemis humiliated the Oysters (= head sponsor) when she took the ARC record and SD64 got a handicap slapped on since that day so that the design can't win anymore.

But let's look at sailing fast... do you know Mari-Cha III? Here she is:

See Mari-Cha III SuperMaxi new Atlantic record breaker
She took the record for the fastest Atlantic crossing in 8 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 41 seconds. She averaged 14 knots. See, there's more boats averaging more than 4 knots or even 8.

That same boat also had the record for the Guadeloupe-to-Antigua race and guess who took that record from her?

Yes, Beowulf. She also twice lowered the elapsed time record in the Caribbean 1500 (while winning overall on handicap) and did the Marquesas Islands back to California in the record-setting time of 12 days, 3 hours (taking 6 days off the previous record for this 2800-mile passage against the trades). Do the math... that's about 230nm days against the trades!

This is a quote from Dashew:
Quote:
More than 40,000 miles have passed under her keel with just the two of us aboard. Beowulf consistently averaged 300 miles per day in the trades,
See... that is an average of 300nm days for 40,000nm. Not just one lucky passage, is it?

Back to Merlin and the TransPac: yes, it was terrific and the record stood for 20 years.... but you seem to have forgotten that the record was set in 1977 which is 33 years ago! The reason for holding it so long was that for 20 years, the conditions during the race were never so good as for 1977 (all the boats were 5% faster than normal in 1977); there surely were faster boats than Merlin in those 20 years but they never took the record (neither did Merlin herself). Merlin finished in 8 days, 11 hours; when Pyewacket took the record in 1997 she finished in 7 days 11 hours... that is a full day less. Time will beat any design incl. Merlin. In 2009, the lapsed time record was lowered to 5 days and 14 hours which is 3 days less. This never stops, because boats get faster every year. One day there will be a boat that finishes in half the time that it took Merlin.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 11-04-2010, 00:32   #39
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Oh, BTW... The records set by Beowulf for the Caribbean 1500 were in 2000 and 2001. That 2001 record isn't beat by anyone yet (no mono's and no multi's).. so, we'll see how long it'll last!

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:29   #40
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Umm...we were writing about you averaging 240nm days while cruising. I suppose left unsaid was that you, like Dashew's Beowulf, keep your average up by motorsailing to the next breeze whenever boatspeed drops to 8. I hadn't taken that into account since I pretty much sail everywhere no matter how slow it gets. And buy or carry almost no fuel compared to you and Dashew. This is why I have a SC50: she sails very very well in the moderate stuff so prevalent in my tropical cruising areas. In any breeze she easily sails faster than motoring.

So I won't try to compete with waterline and huge engines. Sorry for the interruption.
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Old 15-04-2010, 04:57   #41
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Actually, the quote doesn't say the Dashew's always averaged 300 miles. It says they averaged 300 miles "in the trades".

None the less, that is quick.
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Old 15-04-2010, 05:41   #42
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Oh, BTW... The records set by Beowulf for the Caribbean 1500 were in 2000 and 2001. That 2001 record isn't beat by anyone yet (no mono's and no multi's).. so, we'll see how long it'll last!

cheers,
Nick.
Thats so funny. The 2001 record was set with Beowulf motoring in the light stuff.
Not only that , but in Steves words ..... we put Beowulf on a "diet".

So the record was set with the assistance of a ####### great diesel. with the boat in lightship condition. Cruising?
Steve says......
"Right now were powering straight upwind, burning four gallons an hour."

See SetSail Blog Archive Caribbean 1500: Were Off!
for more.
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