What is "normal"?

[FabioC]

Some time ago, I hired the "resident mechanic" at my marina (it is actually a fairly large service center, serving a lot of the boats at the marina) to change the engine oil in my boat (I know, I could have done it myself, but I wanted the piece of mind of a mechanic doing it).
I got charged for several hours of labor, while it took less than half of what I was charged (I was there the whole time). On another occasion, for some simple maintenance, I again got charged more than twice the amount of time that it took (I was there the whole time as well).

I am not complaining, I totally get that if I want to save, I can do some of these things myself (and I do most other things, I just have an aversion for engine maintenance...). I also totally get that we are at a marina and the resident mechanic service has a "captive audience" or essentially a monopoly, sort to speak, so they can and will overcharge somewhat, especially for the relatively small things. Overcharging within reason is fine, after all, just the convenience of calling somebody from right there at the marina pays for it. However, their labor rates are already somewhat high, if on top of that they kind of mark up the time, it becomes hard to justify...

My question is a bit different: is this "normal" to expect? and what people (boat owners) "normally" do in such situations? do they complain? do they suck it up? is there a "threshold" over which the overcharging makes things hard to justify?

I understand that each situation is different and there are 100 shades of gray, but I am just curious... opinions?

Thank you

[fstbttms]

As a marine service provider, when asked to do a job for which I need to charge hourly, I make it clear to the customer that that there is a minimum charge and it's typically two hours, even if it's a half hour job. Not addressing that up front is a sure route to a dissatisfied customer.

[Paul L]

Could be minimum billing time like fstbtms mentioned.
Could include time from and back to the shop, plus time to dispose of oil and filter.
Could be just plain padding the bill.

Who knows? Did you ask the shop?

[Sailmonkey]

I’ll add to what Paul l said.

Did you provide the oil and filters? Did you dispose of the oil and filters?

Time is typically charged for “shopping” as we’ll post job clean up/disposal...

[FabioC]

Perhaps a little more data would help in clarifying my question.

On these specific episodes, no, it was not an issue of minimum time. I was given a detailed breakdown of the time, but I was there for the entire duration, I do know how long it took... Also, the time to and from the shop (which is right next to the boat) was itemized in the breakdown, the materials and the disposal were billed separately.

My question, however, it is not tied to these two specific episodes, it is more general. Again, I am not complaining here, I am just trying to understand.

I certainly value the piece of mind of having certain things done by an expert. For example, I am just not good with engines, I always make a mess when I try to do it myself, so at least for some maintenance, I want a professional to do it and I place a big value on that. And, as I said in my original post, I perfectly understand that there is a premium for being able to call an expert right there at the marina. I also totally get it that marine services have to maintain very high margins to survive.

However, from my experience with services and boat yards so far, I do have a bit of uneasy feeling. I am the kind of boat owner who likes to do projects on the boat (I know there are many of us out there) and does not hesitate to hire professionals (except for rigging and splicing, which I truly enjoy doing myself, and invested the time to learn it well), but if prices get bloated, sometimes it is really hard to justify. I feel that I could be a very good customer, but if you do not give a fair or justifiable price, I become a missed opportunity and a disappointed one.

So, in this context, my original question: "is this normal?"; do other boat owners ever feel the same? if so, what do you do in that situation? do you complain or suck it up? or perhaps learn how to do it yourself?

[Sojourner]

As in everything in life, communication is the key. Ask them point blank what the time difference means, and why it is more than the hours you know they were there. Then you'll know if it is fair or not.

If by your name you are Italian and happen to be in La Spezia, then the problem is padding the bill and cheating you, straight up

[jimbunyard]

Seems to me that if they're charging you for more hours than they actually worked, that's fraud, no matter what industry we're discussing.

As Sojourner (politely) puts it inquire.

Me? I'd demand an explanation, and if possible, pay only for the hours actually worked.
'Value-added' services (travel time, waste disposal, etc.) should of course be taken into account...

[valhalla360]

If they were charging by the hour and charged more hours than actually put in, ask for an explanation (and remind them you were there).

Could be a simple mistake and they will quickly fix it.

Otherwise, if they listed out travel time and it wasn't a minimum hours charge, sounds like they were milking it.

[Sailmonkey]

If you really feel like the hours are “padded” start a conversation with the firm. Start by explaining you were there the entire time.
I for one would not be comfortable paying 4 hours for a 2 hour job unless there was a predetermined minimum time involved.

[mglonnro]

I don't think it should matter very much whether it's normal or not. Inflating hours shouldn't be accepted as a norm because that's detrimental to the whole business.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I don't think it should matter very much whether it's normal or not. Inflating hours shouldn't be accepted as a norm because that's detrimental to the whole business.

Yeah and let's not forget- we're only getting one side of the story. Were we to talk to "Chris" at the boatyard, we might get a completely different representation of how this went down.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Yeah and let's not forget- we're only getting one side of the story. Were we to talk to "Chris" at the boatyard, we might get a completely different representation of how this went down.

That is why I am asking "Is this normal?" as opposed to "What should I do?" and I have been careful not to spell out "the hours were inflated" (btw, they were inflated, I was there).

Again, I am not complaining here, this is more a "philosophical" dilemma on how to behave in the future. For example, now it is time again to change oil. What should I do? (or what would you do?): call the guy again and monitor the time precisely or even write it down in the work order when he starts and when he leaves? that does not sound like a good way to build a relationship with the provider... call him like nothing happened? that does not sound very smart either... bring my business elsewhere? impractical at my marina... do it myself? probably, but I would have to become good at it, I may or may not have the time to learn it well, I may make a mess, etc. (for an oil change, DIY is probably not a big deal to learn, but for other things it may be)...

In general, say, for the projects in my "Spring list" should I change my approach and do any job that I can have a reasonable chance of success myself? or continue relying on professionals? or strike off some of the projects all together?

I have a feeling that this kind of things must happen to all boat owners sooner or later, i.e., situations where one as a customer feels that she either has received an unfair price (like in this case for me) or is dissatisfied with the quality of the work (not in this case, I was happy with the quality, but it happens).

This happens in any business, as there is always a gamut of service providers, ranging from very good to very bad. The recreational marine industry, though, is a bit different from "any business," in the sense that many boat owners have to balance recreation time with maintenance and preparation time. That reflects on the "value" that we place on hiring professionals, something that for sure marine businesses are aware of and take advantage, as they should, I do not have a problem with that. Also, in practice there is often a situation of "monopoly" on a certain service, which also plays a role on the "tolerance" of the customers, I do not have a problem with that either as long as it remains within reasons (although I have limited data, I notice that this type of issues, at least for me, seem to arise more often on those services where there is a de-facto "location monopoly" vs. those where there is plenty of choice of providers).

I guess I am just trying to collect experiences and opinions from other owners and service providers to better understand how to behave in the future (and most of all, be happy with the outcome). On one end, I only can afford limited time to enjoy the boat, so I have no choice but to be savvy on how much time I spend on maintenance vs. sailing her. On the other hand, it is not a good feeling to be unsatisfied when a job is performed. I am sure I am not the only owner who is struggling to find the right balance on this.

[Stu Jackson]

You don't want to do it yourself. Repeatedly.


You are a captive audience.


Sometimes yards charge more for having to put up with the "over-the-shoulder" crowd.


You've written so much about this that in all that time you could have learned how to do it yourself.


You SAW how they did it, right? What part of those tasks can't you do?



Look, I put off buying a bigger boat for a decade because I was afraid of diesel engines. Within a week after I bought the boat, I solved an overheating issue by reading a little and taking off and cleaning the heat exchanger. I was deathly afraid of bleeding, so I did a little reading and learned how easy it is - turn a small knob, done! I put off doing my first oil change... You get the picture. I don't call myself a diesel mechanic, but I can do basic servicing tasks.



Either pay the piper, or learn how to do it and stop complaining.

[Pete17C]

This is SOP in most auto repair shops, they bill by book/hours. They have a book that says how long a job should take and bill by that. If they can get the job done in a shorter time, it's because they're quicker than anticipated. If they go over, they usually eat it, but the book usually gives plenty of time for the job. You (the customer) never get the break when it comes to the bill.

If they gave an estimate (and the bill matches that), and you agree to the work, were you really cheated?

[Jammer]

Well, the first thing to understand here is that, from the yard's point of view, time starts when they decide to start working on your boat and start pulling out the paperwork, records, parts, tools, etc., and start walking or driving over to where your boat is. Then, time stops when they have finished putting the tools away and filling out the paperwork, and are ready to start on the next boat.


This is true at most kinds of repair shops, automotive, RV, etc., not just boat yards.


Now, it seems farfetched to me that these sorts of preparatory and wrap-up activities would double a work item that actually took only 90 minutes, but it's possible, particularly if they had to make multiple trips to your boat because they needed to go back for a special wrench or had the wrong parts or whatever and you didn't include this.


In my limited dealings with yards and sail lofts, I have felt that I was treated fairly and charged for time spent.


In your situation, I would ask them about it, in a "I mainly just want to understand how you determine time" sort of way, and see if they made a mistake.


If you believe they are treating you unfairly, well, find another yard, because that's not the way it's supposed to work, and you're supposed to be able to trust them.