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Old 22-09-2013, 08:44   #376
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No need to apologize. I always appreciate your contribution to this forum..

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Oh well, to avoid misunderstandings : this was referring to DH' s last past
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Old 22-09-2013, 08:46   #377
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I, as I'm sure many others here, am amazed that someone who readily admits they are relatively new to sailing or any other sort of boating, deems themselves to be able to present knowledge over and above those who have been active in sailing for most of their lives in some of the world's busiest sea lanes.

Raku, you are an intelligent person, but unfortunately you're also a very stubborn person. Some of us know that you've learnt a lot in a short amount of time. Those accomplishments are admirable.

The stubborn part of you however, cause you to make statements that are just plain wrong, and as shown in this thread, downright dangerous. These aren't opinions we're talking about, these are rules of the road so to speak, that mariners are expected to know and are expected to follow.

Let me repeat that. These are rules that mariners are expected to know AND to follow. To do anything else endangers not only yourself, but endangers others who are in the area. To say that one simply stays out of the way implies a willy nilly manner of action.

Humble people are prone to accept the knowledge that others can bestow on them. There are numerous experienced and knowledgeable people who have indicated where your planned actions are not in compliance with COLREGS. They operate in extremely busy sea lanes. Many have tens of thousands of sea miles under their belt. Some are professional masters. I learn from their knowledge and expertise; that is only prudent. I am grateful that they are part of this forum.

You have argued with every one of them that they are wrong and you are right. Do you not see an issue with this? Can you not see that perhaps you should just take a step back, absorb the knowledge that is being presented, and implement that knowledge? Many have linked to the applicable regulations. With the exceptions of the variances of the inland water rules inside the demarcation line, ( which do not alter the collision rules) these are as applicable to Apollo Beach, and Boca Ciega bay as to the English Channel and Catalina Island.

I can only hope if there are any newcomers reading this thread, that they recognize and follow the advice of those who have years of experience in real life situations applying the regulations of safe boating.

It would be a disservice to them to come away from this thread with mixed thoughts.
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Old 22-09-2013, 09:14   #378
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Old 22-09-2013, 09:14   #379
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Of course. That's why one moves out of the way sooner rather than later, so the book doesn't even apply.

I'm a chicken. I don't WANT a big ferry bearing down on me. I don't WANT to worry about which is the stand-on vessel and wet myself while I pray for that big give-way ferry to move. I won't be anywhere near it to begin with. It would be a non-event, never noticed by any SANE other boater, unremarkable in every way. I don't believe in deadlines on sailboats, so I'm in no rush. Where do I want to cross that ferry? From behind, and it's not hard to do. It happens here all the time with power boats that while smaller, are going much faster than that ferry.

When this thread first started and people started jumping up and down about how fast they were, I thought we were talking about something like the "fastboat" ferry that travels between Ft. Myers and Key West in a little less than four hours. Now THAT'S a ferry to pay attention to! It can move up to 36 knots.

This whole thing is absurd -- and nasty.
Oh Raku....
The 'Book' most definitely comes into it... like exceeding the speed limit you can get away with it 99% of the time... but... when you get caught you'll find out PDQ... pleading ignorance due to lack of road signs in a Court of Law is not a valid excuse..
There's aright way and a wrong way... getting away with wrong so far does not make it right..
Like the guy dropping past the 15th floor saying... "So far so good.."

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Old 22-09-2013, 09:28   #380
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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For newcomers to sailing who are reading this thread, please recognize that ad hoc action such as simply staying out of the way are not, I repeat NOT the safe action. Those who are advocating it are inviting dangerous and illegal behavior. If you're going to be operating in an area especially with larger ships, make sure you know the COLREGS cold. Those larger ships are depending on other traffic to understand what the rules of the road, or this case the sea, are. In fact, most of your fellow sailors are also.

It is great to have a debate of when and how COLREGS apply, however it is dangerous to advocate to ignore them.

Please do yourself a favor and listen to those that have experience, especially in the areas with heavier traffic.

Those were advocating an ad hoc manner of operation, are doing no one any favors. It would be a mistake to listen to them. They do not understand and are not talking from experience.

I would be concerned that professional mariners would read this and reach the conclusion that sailboats will take action to avoid collision in any situation.
This may result in watchkeepers sighting a sail boat, and then ignore it as they are now under the impression that the sailboat will keep clear.

Going back to the original case of the ferry running down a sailboat. If this was indeed an overtaking situation, then the major portion of the blame will be attached to the ferry, colregs are pretty clear on this, the word "notwithstanding" carries a lot of weight.
The colregs were not written by lawyers, they were not written to apportion blame. They were written by experienced mariners, with the sole purpose to provide clear and sensible guidance on avoiding close quarter situations.
If you want to ignore them, so be it, but as Phil so delicately put it, if you F's up, you will be taking the consequences.
In crowded waters, the idea is that everyone should have some idea of what another boat or ship will do. You not only need to be aware of your own isolated position, but of those around you. What if you had two ferrys approaching from astern,and a couple heading the other way, one on each bow. All the ferries will expect a sail boat to stand on, if you decide to make a big alteration, its going to ruin someone's day.

I was out on a rig move from last Monday, back in Aberdeen last night, and 350 odd posts took a lot of reading in one hit
As an exercise, I have printed the complete thread as it stood last night, and have passed it to my 3 watch keeping mates, and to our navigating apprentice. They have been asked to read it, and to let me know by tomorrow what their conclusions are with regards to how some yachties view the colregs.
On the way back in towards Aberdeen yesterday morning,I was standing the 8 to 12 watch, saw a small radar target at about 6 miles out on the port bow, steady bearing. At 4 miles, could make out a boat under sail, close hauled on the port tack in a good westerly breeze. At no time did it ever occur to me that they would alter course, nor did they, I just came around 20 degrees to port, and passed astern of her. The fun bit would have been if at the same time I altered, they decided to bear right away or gybe.
For bigger boats, risk of collision is about 4 to 6 miles apart (more in some cases), in moderate visibility how close do you have to be to sight another vessel. By the time you do, Colregs will apply, and at night, it can be pretty difficult to judge visibility offshore.
If you spot something on a steady bearing some 6 + miles away, do your own thing if done safely and with due consideration to those around you, at less than 6 miles, start to consider that the other ship, ferry etc, may have already taken action to avoid you.
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Old 22-09-2013, 09:28   #381
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If it's so impossible to avoid colliding with ferries, then how come we aren't hearing about them daily, or at least weekly?
No doubt it is because the vast vast majority of ferry drivers and most boaters know and follow the COLREGS. It's definitely not because most ferry drivers are reckless idiots and neither are all the rec boaters too scared to be near one. One just has to spend a single weekend on Puget Sound to know that much. Thousands of ferry passages every year and millions of rec boating outings per year in PNW waters and yet a shockingly small percentage of accidents per passage attests that the system is working. In my opinion it is a disservice to professional captains and most boaters to suggest that the best way to avoid death and destruction is to run away because those nasty ferry drivers will just run you down any chance they get.
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Old 22-09-2013, 09:31   #382
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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I would be concerned that professional mariners would read this and reach the conclusion that sailboats will take action to avoid collision in any situation.
This may result in watchkeepers sighting a sail boat, and then ignore it as they are now under the impression that the sailboat will keep clear.

.....

Sure, Nigel. All those licensed captains are spending their Sunday off reading a forum on line, and deciding that they will now ignore the colregs.

Uh-huh. Sure. Now that I have posted that I avoid collision courses early and often, THE WHOLE WORLD IS IN DANGER!
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Old 22-09-2013, 09:41   #383
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

If anyone rereads a lot of threads, eventually you see how original comments when challenged by people who have a lot of experience/authority behind their posts quickly wither...those "original comments" become more and more clearly defined and so become ever more closer to the truth.

Then after awhile when it's decided that everybody is right to a point...then the "who me...I never meant/said that" runs it's course till it develops into the "OK all you smart/experienced/professional guys are just ruining the internet"...
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Old 22-09-2013, 10:31   #384
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.......

I was out on a rig move from last Monday, back in Aberdeen last night, and 350 odd posts took a lot of reading in one hit
As an exercise, I have printed the complete thread as it stood last night, and have passed it to my 3 watch keeping mates, and to our navigating apprentice. They have been asked to read it, and to let me know by tomorrow what their conclusions are with regards to how some yachties view the colregs.
:
I think a lot of us would be very interested what your mates come up with. Please be sure to post their thoughts
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Old 22-09-2013, 10:40   #385
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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I'll say it again. I think ego is the most dangerous thing on water.
Words of Wisdom....
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Old 22-09-2013, 10:43   #386
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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There's nothing in the colregs that says I have to be near a ferry. Period, SHOULD be end of discussion unless some guys here want to continue looking foolish.

Believe it or not, hundres of thousands of sailors are out there every day without the help of this chorus of crows, and NOT getting run down by ferries.
Thousands of sailors (there are not hundreds of thousands) are not getting run down either because they understand collision avoidance and follow the correct procedures, or because they bob around clueless while professional mariners maneuver around them from 5 or 6 miles out, or further. You didn't read Nigel's post, it seems. He drives those big ships you are so afraid of, for a living. He's a professional.

You cannot determine that a risk of collision exists at that range with your bare eyes, but you are already in a Colregs situation without even realizing it. That is the fundamental problem with the "just don't get near a ferry in the first place" strategy.

And anyway, it is not within your power to decide to be near a ferry or not, if you sail in open water. They will come up on you without asking your permission, and you will usually not notice them (without AIS alarms), and not be able to even detect them, until you are well into a Colregs situation.


If you simply never go into open water, stay in water too shallow for shipping (not hard in Florida, I admit), and cross shipping channels only when there is nothing in sight (all of which is an excellent idea), then your strategy will work. Otherwise, it is dangerous foolishness.

The good news is that 99% of everyone driving big ships is a good professional who sees you miles and miles before you see him, and steers a wide berth around the WAFI before the WAFI can do anything erratic and dangerous. Your boat is so slow and thus unmaneuverable (in open water, maneuverability is all about speed) that he can deal with you as if you're standing still, if he's going fast enough. And I daresay that's the only reason why you haven't been run down so far.


Aristotle said that the essence of wisdom is knowing what you don't know. It is essential to safety at sea to know that you don't know whether or not that ferry is on a collision course or not, indeed you cannot know it at a safe distance without skillful use of a HBC over a fair period of time (maybe more time than you've got). I would add to Aristotle that it is also essential to know what you cannot do. At a certain distance, you cannot get out of the way of a fast moving ship, with a boat capable only of 5 or 6 knots. That distance is much greater than you think, requiring action on the part of the give-way vessel much further off than you imagine -- generally some miles.
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Old 22-09-2013, 10:52   #387
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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"OK all you smart/experienced/professional guys are just ruining the internet"...
haha
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Old 22-09-2013, 11:02   #388
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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COLLISION RULES ONLY APPLY WHEN THE VESSELS ARE ON A COLLISION COURSE.
absolutely incorrect. Id suggest you read the COLREGS sometime, especially if you plan on leaving the dock, for your sake and other mariners.
If you don't understand anything in particular feel free to ask on the forum, there is a wealth of experience here and I for one appreciate the input and advice from seasoned sailors. Dockhead, goatboating, jim cate, etc etc, even boatman... Fantastic to hear
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Old 22-09-2013, 11:06   #389
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absolutely incorrect. Id suggest you read the COLREGS sometime, especially if you plan on leaving the dock, for your sake and other mariners.
If you don't understand anything in particular feel free to ask on the forum, there is a wealth of experience here and I for one appreciate the input and advice from seasoned sailors. Dockhead, goatboating, jim cate, etc etc, even boatman... Fantastic to hear
ROTFLMBO.... appreciate the afterthought Monte...
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Old 22-09-2013, 11:09   #390
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Back when I rode motorcycles, the rule was "Drive like you are invisible and there is a bounty on your ass." I employ that same thinking when engaging with a larger vessel. I never get in front of them if I can help it, regardless the Stand on / Give way status, unless I have radio contact and a clear understanding with the other captain, to insure safe passage. Even then, I am not afraid to pull a 180* turn if it doesn't look / feel right.
If you dont have the attitude that every car on the highway is out to kill you, you will be killed..
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